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"Still no 15mm Goryeo?" Topic


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jeeves09 Aug 2015 8:18 a.m. PST

I've looked everywhere--there are still no 15mm Goryeo Koreans to fight Mongols with, are there?

ChrisBrantley09 Aug 2015 8:52 a.m. PST

Best available options are from Naismith

link

and Khorasan's Three Kingdoms range

link

GurKhan09 Aug 2015 9:42 a.m. PST

I find it hard to get a very clear idea of what they looked like, despite the survival of some pieces of Goryeo kit. Designing a convincing range would be hard.

Wansui09 Aug 2015 1:42 p.m. PST

The Moko Shurai Ekotoba depict Goryeo Koreans,and I believe most ranges label them as Mongol Auxiliaries.

jeeves09 Aug 2015 3:55 p.m. PST

Three Kingdoms Koreans looked like Goryeo? Isn't there quite a timespan between them?

jeeves09 Aug 2015 3:55 p.m. PST

Are there photos of the Naismith models anywhere?

Swampster10 Aug 2015 2:52 a.m. PST

I think I have most of the Naismith east Asian range in my Photobucket
link

You'll have to cross reference the code with a list.

Some quite nice figures in the range, some not so good. Also, it was produced with reference to the old WRG Chinese book so some are rather unreliable.

jeeves10 Aug 2015 4:42 a.m. PST

Very cool. Thanks.

Swampster10 Aug 2015 4:55 a.m. PST

Hopefully my link will work now.

GurKhan10 Aug 2015 5:39 a.m. PST

The Moko Shurai Ekotoba depict Goryeo Koreans,and I believe most ranges label them as Mongol Auxiliaries.

Well, that's one interpretation, perhaps the commonest; but we don't really know if the scroll figures are Korean or not. They don't seem to match very well with the few surviving pieces of Goryeo armour I have seen.

Mike O10 Aug 2015 6:41 a.m. PST

Perhaps there aren't many Goryeo figures because there isn't a handy Osprey on the subject to spread misinformation to manufacturers? ;) (OK, they're not all bad…)

By chance a couple of days ago I ended up trying to dig up info on the Goryeo/Koryŏ troops as I was researching the Yuan infantry on the Mongol Invasions of Japan scroll (Mōko Shūrai Ekotoba as mentioned by Wansui bowdoin.edu/mongol-scrolls ). This also took me to the old John P Greer "Armies and Enemies of Ancient China" book which, as Swampster notes, is very outdated and contains a bunch of assumptions that we now know are just wrong.

Greer's contention that figures on the scroll with long coats and wicker pavises are Korean is based on one of the pennants on the scroll bearing the ying-yang-like Taeguk symbol familiar to the modern South Korean flag. However Korea didn't have a national flag until the late 19th century and it's a bit of a leap to associate it with the Goryeo Dynasty.

picture

The DBM(M) Yuan army lists states these troops are "variously identified as South Chinese or Korean" but they also appear in the portion of the scroll covering the first invasion of 1274 so are more likely to be northern Chinese "Han-chun" or Korean as the Southern Sung weren't conquered until 1279, just prior to the second invasion of Japan in 1281.

I attempted to search around for info on Goryeo banners and flags (including on Korean websites) but couldn't find anything definite suggesting use of the Taeguk symbol but happy to be corrected there as I've little knowledge of the subject.

This Korean museum site wmk.kr/en/217 mentions flags used by the Goryeo Dynasty but I can't find any pictures there. "The left flag showing an elephant figure is called "Sanggi," and the right one with the picture of a hawk is called "Eungjungi." The flag with the horse figure located at the center is called "Haemagi."


Most modern paintings, plates and Goryeo re-enacters seem to show brightly coloured plain banners and pennants although a symbol apparently of a galloping horse (Haemagi?) on a squarish banner with a border consisting of narrow rectangles in alternating colours popped up a couple of times (including "Siege Weapons of the Far East (1)", Plate C by Turnbull which features a dark blue ground). Again I've no idea how accurate they are.

These re-enactors supposedly depict Goryeo "Royal Guards"

picture

Modern painting depicting Goryeo fighting the Mongols

picture

picture

picture

Goryeo armour in the Korean museum:

link

GurKhan10 Aug 2015 8:18 a.m. PST

The "elephant" and "horse" flags used to be visible in photos on the Korean war museum site, and also on "Thomo's Hole", but both sites seem to have been redesigned and lost them.

The identification of the scroll figures as southern Chinese was, I think, suggested in David Nicolle's "Mongol Warlords" based on the large cane shields. In a Slingshot review of Thomas Conlan's book of the Scroll, I came to the same conclusion as Durruti, namely that as they're in battles of the first invasion they aren't southerners but – if the scroll's accurate – either Hanjun or Koreans.

The mail armour preserved in the museum and worn by the re-enactors was a surprise when I first saw it. I wonder if it was introduced from Central Asia under Mongol auspices, and hence only typical of the later part of the Goryeo period?

Mugap's Korean armour blog – kyb0417.blogspot.co.uk – is valuable but doesn't have much from the Goryeo period (and doesn't seem to have been updated since 2012).

Wansui10 Aug 2015 12:36 p.m. PST

Goryeo endured through almost 5 centuries,with the Mongol invasions of Japan being near the end of the dynasty.

The reenactments look suspiciously similar to Joseon reenactments perhaps there was some overlap or the image was mislabeled?

I highly doubt the infantry depicted on land represent southern Song marines,as they provided logistical support and the survivors were spared and assimilated by the Japanese.

From the 19th century version of the Moko Shurai Ekotoba,what I believe to be ex Song(Xin Fu Jun) and ex Jin(Han Jun) soldiers.

postimg.org/image/5gsdt0hj9

postimg.org/image/5xn9q6tlt

Swampster10 Aug 2015 12:56 p.m. PST

"reer's contention that figures on the scroll with long coats and wicker pavises are Korean is based on one of the pennants on the scroll bearing the ying-yang-like Taeguk symbol familiar to the modern South Korean flag. However Korea didn't have a national flag until the late 19th century and it's a bit of a leap to associate it with the Goryeo Dynasty."

I suspect it is just a watermark – it seems to extend onto the paper. Other flags on the ships show similar white or yellow circles without a hint of the yin-yang.

Mike O11 Aug 2015 2:50 p.m. PST

Good to see further interesting thoughts.

Duncan (GurKhan), such a shame those photos seem to have disappeared down a hole in the interwebs (even tried web archives like Wayback Machine with no luck). Would have been interested to see if the Haemagi horse design resembled that of the re-eneactor's flag on the right and the Turnbull book plate.

Seem to recall we had a similar discussion on the DBMM Yahoo group about those pesky pavisiers a couple of years (and a few thousand posts) ago :) Talking of the David Nicolle book, one of these guys is pictured perched on the back of a heavy cavalry-man's horse (between pg 80 and 81) which makes for a strange sight. Can't imagine all that weight would do the animal much good!

The reenactments look suspiciously similar to Joseon reenactments perhaps there was some overlap or the image was mislabeled?

You could very well be right, Wansui, but their armour does seem to resemble the sets in the Korean museum I posted which are attributed to the Goryeo period plus there's that horse banner. Interested on your thoughts on that.

From the 19th century version of the Moko Shurai Ekotoba,what I believe to be ex Song(Xin Fu Jun) and ex Jin(Han Jun) soldiers.

Those figures in the pictures you posted do indeed have a very Chinese look to them the feathery-wing-like helmet adornments and the belly-wrappers. Speaking of the latter, the first picture I posted from the original scroll has a figure in white, bottom centre, with what looks like a tiger-skin belly-wrapper if I've interpreted the image correctly perhaps a commander?


I suspect it is just a watermark it seems to extend onto the paper. Other flags on the ships show similar white or yellow circles without a hint of the yin-yang.

I think you've hit on something there, Swampster. It doesn't look at all symmetrical and the original scrolls suffered fading and damage over time. Conlan notes (pg 10) that, according to legend, they even ended up dropped in the ocean at one point!

At the end of the day I think the Mōko Shūrai Ekotoba is an amazing surviving document especially valuable for the appearance, culture, fighting style, banners and mon of the Japanese but we don't know what the artists had to go on for the Yuan enemy. Did they have access to captured gear? Certainly they would be unfamiliar with non-Japanese stuff and probably filled gaps in their knowledge with conventional Japanese depictions. Where that leaves a study of the Goryeo I don't know!

Thanks,
Mike

goragrad11 Aug 2015 3:39 p.m. PST

Back to the OP, 15mmUK has a Korean cavalryman and one of those infantry with the wicker pavise in their Mongol line.

link

link

link

Pity they don't have light cav and archers.

Falcon Figure has Three Kingdoms Koreans that are consistent with those Naismith figures. I have some and like them.

Unfortunately the relevant directory on the website is password protected. Not sure what is up with that.

link

Swampster13 Aug 2015 1:11 p.m. PST

This should take you straight to the Koreans (and Chinese though no indication which is supposed to be which)
link

Mongols here link
The 'auxilliaries' are provided but with a small or no shield. It may be that MON25 is the pavise bearer but the photo is wrong. The whole page is unfortunately a bit of a mess which is a shame as there are some nice figures – I really like the horse holders and the two handed swordsmen.

jeeves13 Aug 2015 3:35 p.m. PST

Would any of these koreans from the various lines you all mention be comparable in size or are they really different?

jeeves13 Aug 2015 3:44 p.m. PST

Which from the mongol auxiliaries on the falcon page would you say are definitely supposed to be korean, Swampster?

Wansui13 Aug 2015 4:14 p.m. PST

You could very well be right, Wansui, but their armour does seem to resemble the sets in the Korean museum I posted which are attributed to the Goryeo period plus there's that horse banner. Interested on your thoughts on that.

Late Goryeo and early Joseon should have some overlap in armaments,but for some reason plated mail was abandoned.

Those figures in the pictures you posted do indeed have a very Chinese look to them the feathery-wing-like helmet adornments and the belly-wrappers. Speaking of the latter, the first picture I posted from the original scroll has a figure in white, bottom centre, with what looks like a tiger-skin belly-wrapper if I've interpreted the image correctly perhaps a commander?

Phoenix wing adornments,waist cushions,scarves,Fu Tou turbans and mountain pattern scale armor were used by Chinese armies(Tang-Ming).

However other cultures adopted them as well(Joseon era 北關遺蹟圖帖 depicts Goryeo and Joseon campaigns) becoming somewhat of an anachronism.(Edo period Ehon Kanso Gundan and Ehon Chosen Gunki depict the Chu Han contention and Imjin War respectively).

The 1517 Kiyomizudera Engi Emaki depict the Emishi in Chinese style armor while Sakanoue no Tamuramaro and his men wear Genpei era armor.

I would assume that tiger pelts wouldn't be handed out to the rank and file.

Swampster14 Aug 2015 12:07 a.m. PST

"Which from the mongol auxiliaries on the falcon page would you say are definitely supposed to be korean, Swampster?"

I wouldn't go so far as to say any of them are Korean!
14, 15 and 16 look to be inspired by the figures on the Japanese scrolls but as said above, these could be Chinese.
MON 26 is a southern tribesman I think, so definitely out.

jeeves14 Aug 2015 4:35 a.m. PST

Ahh gotcha thanks.

jeeves22 Aug 2015 3:39 p.m. PST

Does anyone own the Naismith koreans and can tell me if they're good overall? or if the range contains any bad sculpts? Thanks.

goragrad23 Aug 2015 11:46 p.m. PST

By the way, those aren't the Falcon Three kingdoms lines.

Those were commissioned by Rudynelson of TMP and Fanaticus.

Not sure why that section of The Quartermaster site is blocked (as not currently in the market I haven't contacted them).

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