"Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning" Topic

by Timothy Snyder.

"Timothy Snyder's "Black Earth" offers a mixed bag for readers. Those familiar with the topic will undoubtedly find themselves making notes in the margins of practically every other page, while those new to the subject will be awed by what, at best, can be classified as historical "sound bites" or factoids. As such I have to admit that in places this book is very readable, much more so than your usual historical monograph on these topics. Snyder is a historian of Poland and it shows well enough as at the heart of "Black Earth" is not so much the Holocaust as is Poland. The problem is that putting Poland on a pedestal as Snyder so often does leaves a bad aftertaste. Although Poland participated in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia (using the same ideas of self-determination that both Germany and the Soviet Union utilized during the Second World War) and had similar plans to the Germans in the mid-to-late 1930s in removing Jews from Polish territory, according to Snyder it wasn't so bad. Polish citizens and institutions helped train Jewish Zionists to fight in Palestine against the British so that they could pave the way for a Jewish state and rid Poland, and, by extension, Europe, of its Jews sooner rather than later. The party in power in Poland in 1938 "announced its preference for the emigration of about 90 percent of Poland's Jews" (59). But it's not a big deal, as, according to Snyder, the leader of the party was married to a Jew. The real difference between the two, for Snyder, is that Germany eventually aimed for the "destruction" of states where Jews lived whereas Poland wanted to create a new state in the Middle East for Jews. But such a "sound bite" seemingly puts ideology as it would develop in Germany above everything else, the numerous exceptions made by Hitler in regards to decisions dealing with Jews and occupied territories, etc.

In more than one instance Snyder also seems to be working backwards, with hindsight in mind to make his arguments hold water. For instance, in discussing the creation of the first concentration camps in Germany he claims that "the concentration camps were training grounds for the more general SS mission beyond Germany: the destruction of states by racial institutions" (42). But such a claim means that Hitler knew exactly how the Second World War would unfold before it even began. Snyder also claims German plans for resettling Jews in Madagascar were equivalent to the "Final Solution" (76). Further examples of using hindsight would be Snyder's discussion of Stalin wanting to "seize" the opportunity to destroy the Polish state, leaving out any discussion of Soviet foreign policy in the 1930s, the more than two weeks spent by the Soviet Union after Germany invaded Poland in seeing how the western allies would react, or the threats made to the Soviet Union by Germany in regards to what they'd do with territories within the Soviet "sphere of influence" if the Red Army did not invade…"
Full review here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Topics that have nothing to do with miniature wargaming, like one on Ayatollah Khameini's latest book, or one on free blacks in the slave south, or another on the Wounded Knee massacre, or this one above, are now creeping out from their ghetto on the Ultramodern Discussion board and proliferating on other boards.

When I question Bill about this, he responds that the topic has something vaguely to do with warfare, so he'll allow it.

The dilemma I have is that these topics interest me, so that I participate more often in them and at greater length than in ordinary hobby threads. But these topics often lead to differences of opinion that provoke emotional quarrels between posters.

So, is this The Miniatures Page or the Touchy Historical Topics Page? I can walk away. No one forces me to participate. Do or do not, there is no 'try'. It seems that as long as we remain civil, no one gets dawghoused. I am actually interested to read opinions contrary to my own, it's the frequent snark that gets under my skin and provokes me to respond in kind.

I am an admirer of Timothy Snyder's previous work Bloodlands / Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. I found Bloodlands insightful and eye-opening. I recommend it to everyone who studies the genocides of 20th century Europe. I will pick up a copy of Black Earth soonest and bump it to the top of my reading list.

Having not read Black Earth yet, I can't respond to Kunikov's review. At first glance, I am put off by Kunikov's dismissal of Snyder as a pop historian. I'll leave anything more until I read the book.

I have to understand my friend that some people like to read about history… even when that history don't involved a combat to be recreated in a wargame…

Those who love/like for example WW2 can be interested in this part of that conflict.

As all the others Era forums with their own books, history comments, etc.

Imho that's why "Media" Forums are.

Ultramodern… it's another kind of forum.

Glad you are interested on them like myself (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Zippy

This particular board is about WWII Media. This books is relevant to the topic.

I, for one, enjoyed Mr Snyder book "Bloodlands". Well, "enjoyed" is not the word I should use. Say that I found it informative and interesting.

I wasn't aware of his new book, so I am grateful to Raul that he has brought it up to my attention.

Agree with zfn. I'd rather discussions where we engaged about miniature wargaming, instead of a debating club on 20th century history.