"Ploesti raid, August 1, 1943" Topic

I met with friends yesterday at the local coffee shop, and one brought his autographed photos of US B-24 "Liberators" that made the bombing run on the Romanian oil fields around Ploesti. They were from the 9th US Army Air Corps, based in Benghazi in North Africa.

I was surprised to learn that the bombers shot down were hit by German 20mm, and 37mm, light anti-aircraft guns, but mostly manned by Romanian forces. The 88's were meant for high level work, and not very effective at low level.

Allegedly, British anti-aircraft crews protected the 9th in Benghazi, and US officers conferred with them before the raid. The gunners said is a German raid in force ever came at them at tree-top level, the would fire on the highest among them, having the longest time in view.

One pilot alleges to have dropped his bombs, then dove as low as possible, and turned at lowest level to escape. Enemy fighter pilots had a tough time diving on them, and he escaped.

John visited with 9th Air Force reunions over the years, and got autographs of current survivors on photos of the actual planes that survived.

GdeP

In the large book AirWar it's one of my favorite chapters.

Hello, 14Bore! I see we now live in the same county! I am near Royersford.

GdeP

I think the Ploesti Tidal Wave attack would make a spectacular war movie. 300 B-24s at tree-top level, thundering through flak and fighters while an entire oil refinery blows up all around them. With modern computer special effects, we could do it right.

Tell half the story from the perspective of the Axis defenders, who make up an interesting international team: Germans, Italians and Rumanians. There's plenty of scope for love-relationship stories for both sides. I've been toying with a script outline for years.

….. Starring James Franco and Ben Affleck?

;-]

Byron

GDP if you could send me a message.
And it would make a fantastic movie there was all kinds of heroics and screw ups and lots of characters.

Dawn breaking over the Adriatic, an Italian aircrew on a routine recon flight, sleepy, bored. The observer spots a single B-24 low down, at wave-top height. "Capitano, look!"

Then, as the sun rises, another B-24. Then another. Then more. Then many, many more, as far as the eye can see, hundreds of the huge planes, skimming the waves…the Italian pilot radios his base…

14Bore:

My home e-mail is parisguard (at) suddenlink (dot)net.

Who would have expected THAT?!

GdeP

44th Bomb Gp was loaned to the 9th to augment this raid. Gen Johnson Medal of Honor is at the Army Historic center at Carlisle, PA, along with most of the units records.

I have seen some amateur made youtube videos about this raid.

It would be nice to see one made but I can see several reasons why not.

1] B-24s – B-17s are better known.

2] 15th USAAF – not the 8th.

3] The raid was extremely costly – almost a disaster. They did damage the target and some amazing acts of heroism occurred so it would make a good film but not a 'feel good' film.

That said – I would love to be proved wrong.

CGI could do a really good job on this.

1] B-24s – B-17s are better known.

Hollywood wouldn't let a small detail like that stand in their way – they'd just use B17s, Or maybe they'd go for B29s. Any complaints would get the standard answer (often seen on these pages re films like Braveheart):
"Hey – it's a movie – get over it…!"

Doug

All you nay-sayers, saying, "Nay, nay!", I will swamp you with my righteous, positive waves.

I'd bet that the average American teenage boy today couldn't tell a B-17 from a Piper Cub. You and I could, but we're not him. A B-24 is a big, imposing airplane with machine-guns sticking out all over it, bigger than a B-17, nearly as big as a B-29. Turn a bunch of aviation nerds loose on this project with some live warbirds, some good models and a whole lot of CGI. They will make it look spectacular.

High noon over Ploesti. Chaos and carnage. Huge plumes of billowing black smoke. Fighters following bombers through flak at tree-top height. Big blasts as bomb loads land on storage tanks, cracking towers, flak positions, fire crews. Planes going down left, right, here, there, another one, spectacular crashes with big pieces of wreckage flying loose. A long climax, very cinematic. Did you like the attack on the Death Star, the snow-speeder counter-attack on Hoth? You will eat this with a spoon. That teenage boy will see it 20 times in the theater, and take his girlfriend

Skarper, Americans *love* heroic disasters, provided they're really heroic and not just stupid fiascos: the Alamo, the Hornet's Nest, the retreat of the Nez Perce, the Lost Battalion, Wake Island, Black Hawk Down. They demonstrate our men showing real courage when the odds are hopelessly against them. We'll even spin a stupid fiasco like Custer's Last Stand as a heroic disaster.

Tidal Wave (great title for the movie) would be an easy disaster to spin. The survivors stagger home, shot to pieces and in shock, but determined to fly the next mission and win the war. The defenders count their own losses and look with foreboding to the future. "Sure, we decimated them this time," says the Italian fighter commander to his beautiful, tragic, young wife (Shall we make her Jewish? Hee-hee.), "but they bombed the target. And they will be back, many times, many more of them, sooner than we expect. It is the beginning of the end for Fascism, for us…"

Yeah, I coulda been a commercial writer. I just never liked cocaine very much.

A buddy of mine, Mike Moore, ran the B-17 game at the Cons in Denver (Ghengis Con and TactiCon) for MANY years (at least I don't think he does it anymore). In this game, each player runs his/her own B-17 using the AH B-17 solitaire game, but grouped into formations/squadrons. Sometimes they had a whole group of 3-4 squadrons.

Several years ago, he was lamenting on running out of ideas for new "missions". I volunteered to do Operation Tidal Wave – the book Ploesti being a favorite of mine for many years.

The B-17s had to use the optional "Tokyo Tank" rules from the General, and IIRC, there was a mod to the bomb bay hit to for a fuel tank there too.

They flew in and had to contend with the flak train – there were rules for them to shoot back at it and even bomb it (though no one thought to do it). Mike said he had to bone up on the landing rules, since there were so many forced landings – as opposed to bailouts.

The players could lose fuel from various causes, and in order to make it back to Benghazi, there was virtually no margin. Diverts to Turkey and Sicily were possible just as in the real raid. The players were given the option to dump their guns to gain an extra zone of flying time, and many had to once back over the Med.

Unfortunately I couldn't make the game, but Mike told me when the wave of fighters hit them the turn after they dumped their guns, just like in the real raid, the look on their faces was priceless!

Did the game use the B-24 variant or just the B-17s with special rules?

My 7th and 8th Grade history teacher was Col. Roth, who at the time of the raid was captain Roth. I asked him what he did during the war? His answer was he was on the the raid, they came in at 3000 feet to do max damage to the target. I state that is low, Yes he said and it was not undefended. Your where shot down, Yep but we drop our bombs first, fighters got us.

The target was selected because it was undefended the allies did not know that 80% of Germany's fuel came from there.

a German officer sent to see about the defenses called in panic and got Georing himself on the phone. Given full wieght of the LW he organized in 90 days an intergrated defense with new guns and fighters (24). On the day of their first test of the intergated system the allies came.

Col. Roth was liberated from the POW camp by a Russian female AA unit.

Really I asked him Yes and they where tough they beat off Geramn counter attacks for three days until more Russians arrived.

A Great teacher.

What your story and do you have Final Draft (it is the program used by Hollywood)

No Roth on the Tidalwave roster. PDF link Maybe he was one of the 15th AF guys that bombed from high altitude from bases in Italy?

Also IAR 80 Romanian-built fighters!

One incident had an IAR 80 chasing a Liberator down a major thoroughfare, allegedly below the rooftops of the tallest buildings …

What your story and do you have Final Draft (it is the program used by Hollywood)

Do you know where I could send one and have it read? My email is zippy-at-fuse-dot-net.

Interesting note on color of aircraft; some were OD from group out of England and others were desert pink. There is a spectacular photograph of B-24s over oil installations at very low altitude. Yes, "Tidal Wave" would make an excellent movie. There is a movie titled "Fortress" centered on a B-17 crew flying out of North Africa to bomb Italy. It opens with a paragraph on the screen that only one in four crew survived those missions. Then there is a B-17 filling the screen and then more bombers and more until you are looking at one of the most awesome sights in the world, a massed formation of "Flying Fortresses" grouped in formation designed to provide interlocking fields of defensive fire. It has to be CGI but it certainly looks real. A "B" movie with no name actors but most certainly worth looking at.

Fortress has some good moments. Fortress was made low budget with unknown actors [who did ok IMO] and quite cheap production values – some complain the B-17 interiors are unconvincing.

Sadly I think the big money would not get invested in a film about Ploesti which will have limited money making potential. They will more likely remake some superhero film.

Low budget, heavy use of CGI [there are no B-24s left flying] and a lot of young actors who will work for peanuts could still make for a decent movie.

As ever – the film would stand/fall on the script/story.

In answer to Skarper's question, the game at the Con used B-17s, in part because all of the play aids the guys had developed over the years were for B-17s. Plus, it was the B-17 tournament. I remember a couple of the other special rules were the ball turret had been replaced by a fuel tank, and as long as the bombers were at low level, any fighters that came in "low" were assumed to have broken off. On the other hand, FlaK was quite heavy.

In the game, only about 30% made it back to Benghazi; losses were about 60% counting diverts to Turkey, but not counting diverts to Sicily IIRC. Mike said the feedback from the players was positive. There were enough differences to make it interesting, and it was "bloody" enough (over the years the players seemed to think a mission was boring if losses didn't approach 50%).

I thought there were two B-24s still flying, including IIRC Diamond Lil with the CAF – which is close to the correct model for the raid – i.e. pre nose turret.

For the movie, the best character IMO would be for Col. John "Killer" Kane, CO of the 98th Bomb Group, the Pyramiders. IIRC because the lead group makes a wrong turn prior to the actual IP, the 98th ends up leading the main force into the target – at least into the target on the planned route.

And Col. Kane was awarded the CMH for the raid.

Seems 2 B-24s are still flying – according to wiki.

I don't know why I thought none were but am glad to be wrong!