"Noob question about crusader shield" Topic

So this generic shield

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White with red cross, would this be a sort of shield all crusaders could use, it looks kinda like templar shield, but not quite.

Or is this a kinda shield that was never actualy used and now is just a fantacy thing? kinda like the betsy ross dring the AWI

Not sure if it is crusade specific but definitely a sign of the English . I believe the cross would be smaller and not touching the sides to be a knightly order.
I have seen a 28mm miniatures army displayed in this way and it looked stunning.

Originally each 'nation' had it own colours for the cross and field but they seem to have slowly merged and almost any colour of cross on a white field was taken as a crusading symbol. Red on white was popular and widespread throughout the Crusades but by no means exclusively used.

When I looked into this and crusaders heraldry, well, the facts are we know very little. So for nobles you can take posterior heraldry as when it became codified, no doubt took many existing items. If any one finds real solid evidence…repaint?
They had at the beginning at least this pretense of humility so the crosses and simple stuff not to show off.
So you need to practice all kind of crosses! ;))

I think that it was fairly common during the First Crusade, if I remember correctly the Pope put it forward as a sign of unity among the disparate forces, and also that they were fighting for Christ Rather than for themselves.

In the First Crusade red crosses were very popular, but the field was irrelevant. It was a sign of 'having taken the cross' – which meant taking the vow to go to Jerusalem and free it from the 'heathens' for remittance of sins, any sins! It was usually just two strips of cloth sewn, cross wise, on clothing. Shields might bare an overpainted cross, but would usually just be painted with a simple 'martial' pattern common to all European armies of this period. This is my sub-period, and here are my Christian foot.

Later it became the sign of the Templars which came into being in the early years of The Kingdom of Jerusalem.

As the Cross of St. George, of course, it was also the sign of the English so featured heavily in the Third Crusade.

Heraldry, in the 'knightly' sense, didn't come into existence until after the First Crusade. It was copied from eastern practices seen there and came about only gradually. By the time of the Third Crusade it had taken hold amongst the aristo's.

Here is a link to my book list, which might help you out at the library:

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Just seen your earlier post. You've got it right!

From Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291 by Ian Heath:

The distinguishing feature of all crusaders was the cross, worn 'on the shoulders of their mantles or cassocks or tunics' once they had declared their intention to go on a crusade.

Although the shoulder or right breast seem to have been the most common places to wear the cross it is also recorded worn between the shoulders (apparently signifying the pilgrim to be returning from crusade). It normally consisted of a cruciform piece of cloth sewn onto everyday clothes. Traditionally it was red in colour but, although this was generally the case, by the Third Crusade of 1189-1192 certain colours had begun to adopt national meaning – red for the French, green for the Flemish, white for the English and yellow for the Germans.

A heater with cross is shown in Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, c.1287, but not in the same scene in Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, 1280, M.E. Saltykov-Shchredin State Public Library, Ms. Fr. fol.v.IV.5, St Petersburg, Russia or Histoire d'Outremer by William of Tyre, Saint-Jean-d'Acre, Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem, 1280, Lyon – Bibliothèque Municipale – Ms 828

Druzhina
‌Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

12th century depictions of crosses on shields are rare.

Besides the military orders:
a probable Templar Knight on the Cressac Fresco with small cross on his shield and a probable Templar Knight on a Map of Jerusalem, c.1200, with small cross on his shield; I was only able to find a cross ending in fleur-de-lis on a shield in the Navarre Picture Bible, Pamplona, Spain, 1197AD.
The type appearing most commonly is 6 or 8 rays on a shield, sometimes ending in fleur-de-lis, but unique types are the majority.

Druzhina
12th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Aren't they reinforcing bands? That would appear as a dominant four-armed or "Greek" cross, with secondary "rays" in between the painted arms of the cross….

As the Cross of St. George, of course, it was also the sign of the English so featured heavily in the Third Crusade.

As Druz posted, this is not quite right. However, I would adjust his quote to suggest that the red cross was worn by the Capetian contingent on the Third Crusade rather than the French per se. After all, Richard I had possibly the largest contingent after Barbarosa, and I doubt if only the 'English' ones sported a white one. By French I think Howden (the original source I believe) meant, the king of France's contingent etc.

The red cross came later for the English. It was selected by Lord Edward (Longshanks) when confronting Simin de Montford at Evesham (Montfort's men seemingly wore the traditional white one).

I would also contest an assertion that heraldry grew out of Eastern practice.

Love your army though

The 'source' of European heraldry has been argued over and over again and I doubt there will ever be enough evidence found to be certain where, when or how it got started.

There is evidence aplenty that symbolism later used in heraldry appears in various parts of Europe long before the Crusades and it seems that flags and banners are the earliest uses of them. Italy and the old Roman towns in Gaul may have the oldest uses of a consistent design to represent their community and there are claims that Italian families used particular combinations of colours and shapes/symbols as far back as the late 8th C.

The problem is finding enough evidence to put together a viable 'story' of how it started and developed.

Eastern influences may well have played a part but I think we can be reasonably certain that, while contact with Islamic practice may have affected the development of heraldry, it wasn't the spark that started its use in Europe.

The 8 armed 'cross' mentioned is supposedly derived from the bands strengthening a shield (it's heraldic name is an Escarbucle – which gives no real clue to its origins) but I have my doubts, I think it is probably from a wheel.

The red cross came later for the English. It was selected by Lord Edward (Longshanks) when confronting Simin de Montford at Evesham (Montfort's men seemingly wore the traditional white one).

I stand corrected.

I would also contest an assertion that heraldry grew out of Eastern practice.

I have it somewhere amongst my books (trying hard to find it) that it stemmed from here. From memory, individual 'saracens' had easily recognised fixed devices for the office that they held, displayed on large flags, so that they could be found on the field and in a camp. The devices were written down a roll and were distributed widely so that everyone knew who was who. The crusaders copied the idea e.g. fixed devices for people held on a heraldic roll / register. The devices were different, of course, but the idea of the 'fixed heraldic' system came out of it.

Like Gildas, I hadn't thought the source had been pinned down. So I'd be very interested in knowing the source, if you have time to dig it out.

Looking at your blog to enjoy more photos of your cracking army, I noticed that your library is not so dissimilar to my own

Hi janner,

I'm looking. It's there somewhere, though my memory is not as sharp as some, I don't just make these things up.

Crosses on shields:
A knight on the Valþjofstaður Door, National Museum of Iceland, Reykjavik, c.1200, with a cross on shield
Fight against the Red Dragon, Navarra Beatus Codex,Navarre, late 12th century
A few Lewis Chessmen have various crosses on their shields

More 12th century examples of shields with Escarbucle:
Two views of European Infantry in the Capitals in the Cloister of Monreale Cathedral near Palermo in Sicily, 1174 to 1182 AD.
European with sword and shield with Escarbucle, Capitals in the Cloister of Monreale Cathedral near Palermo in Sicily.
The Winchester Psalter or Psalter of Henry of Blois, mid 12th century. Goliath's shield in the lower register has an Escarbucle with fleur-de-lis(?).
Triumph of the Ginetes over the Beast, Navarra Beatus Codex,Navarre, late 12th century

Druzhina
12th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

I'm looking. It's there somewhere, though my memory is not as sharp as some, I don't just make these things up.

I didn't think you'd made anything up, my apologies if I gave you that impression.