"Is Ultra Modern Gaming Dead?" Topic

We really enjoy gaming "imagi-nations" using current conflicts as a guide and hypothetical near future wars.

But the state of TMP's Ultra Modern Board would seem to indicate that ultra modern GAMING might be dead.

The board is overwhelmingly dominated by links to news on current military affairs and there's virtually nothing about actual miniature wargaming. The board functions like the Huffington Post of current military affairs news. Remove the TMP logo and one would have no idea that one is reading a site about miniature wargaming.

So let's do a poll and see if what we have is a dead parrot…err period…or if it's only mostly dead which is not the same thing as being totally dead (as Billy Crystal might say).

Do you game ultra moderns (meaning 2005 to 2015)?

Historical or hypothetical?

Real world or Imagi-nation?

Figure size?

Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)?

EDIT: please do NOT make this about TMP members, moderation/editing, or anything related/personal. Please confine your comments to your personal gaming activities and observations about ultra-modern gaming in your local community and conventions. The point is to see if there's a link between TMP UM content and interest or lack thereof in UM gaming. Thanks!!!

My ultra-modern is not historical so I don't visit/post on the board. Zombies or aliens or ragers.

That said I game in 15mm with players running about a platoon each.

I suspect UM gaming on TMP is dead, but fine on gaming tables.

I occasionally play UM (usually platoon level, and air games), and with Fighting Season imminent I suspect that'll increase, but the cesspit that is the UM board has long since been turned off for me…. In the absence of a dedicated *gaming* board, I'd rather just skip discussing it at all on TMP than wade through all the politics, press releases and other nonsense that drowns out any gaming discussion on the UM board.

I recently got Force on Force and a few supplements, and I'm tempted. But I'm more likely to play historic conflicts like Cold War, Africa, Black Hawk Down etc. Or perhaps near future 'what-ifs'.

The pretense of the Ultra Modern board being gaming related is odd to me. Is there really many wargamers who look at today's news and instantly plan games based on current events? I'd be interested to know – not that there's anything inherently wrong in doing so, I'm just not sure it's that common.

Our "modern" gaming is probably pretty close to yours Mark. With two boys we often delve into strange troop types (my son fields giant mutant weasels). But being sort of conventional myself I do enjoy the old school set-piece battle between regular modern forces.

Dom…you give me hope! :-D

Is there really many wargamers who look at today's news and instantly plan games based on current events?

Really great question DH!

Forgive me for the truth, but to be honest, the Ultramoderns board has turned me off the subject for the gaming table.

I feel that if I ran a game and posted an AAR to said board, it would be bombarded with comments like;

"Those dice wouldn't have rolled like that if they'd been rolled under a Republican president!"

or,

"Cutbacks to the A-10 programme must be the reason you played on a 4'x4' table rather than a 6'x4'."

or,

"(Insert minority group here) are ruining the military!"

And that makes me sad, because I quite like putting stuff on my (oft-neglected) blog, and linking here on TMP, to see what others think of my efforts.

But, I have hope that I might find good reason in the ultra-near future to buy up some GHQ 1980's stuff, and fight out what-if's in the Fulda Gap.

Hm. Fighting NATO vs WarPac C. 1985 isn't actually ULTRA modern anymore, is it? That's an uncomfortably long time ago. Maybe we could have a "I remember when it was Ultra-Modern" board?

I'd go have a sit down and listen to some U2 and Cyndi Lauper, but I can't find my leg-warmers…

I had started buying some figures for ultra-modern, but gave up the idea.

I am just so sick of the bad guys in these wars that I don't even want them on my table.

Tom

I produce both 20mm and 28mm Modern miniatures and judging by the last few year of increasing sales of the modern lines, Ultra Modern gaming is alive, well and growing.

Too Fat Lardies has a modern rules set in development called Fighting Season. Based on their innovative Chain of Command rules, but with a lot of new twists to address modern situations. It looks very interesting!

I don't do ultra-modern gaming.
That said, one really tempting scenario that might happen on a whim if I found the right figures cheap, was Pakistani/Indian patrol actions in the mountains of their northern regions, where the soldiers routinely operate with oxygen due to the altitude. It would be interesting to combine oxygen use strategies with military strategies (is it worth running half a kilometer and burning through most of the oxygen to set up a flank attack?)
I didn't read about this on TMP; I saw it in some current affairs magazine.
Grelber

I game regularly with 1/285th scale and do hypothetical scenarios as well as replay something that just happened. The board is not dead. I like the stories for keeping up on technology and issues.

Modern gaming – up to about 2,000 fine – no desire to game anything current I don't think – at least not on a tabletop.

Whether that is because it is too recent or because the majority of the action doesn't easily lend itself to tabletop gaming I'm not sure.

Think I'd be happy to play politico/military committee games set around current conflicts. Or map campaign games perhaps.

I am just so sick of the bad guys in these wars that I don't even want them on my table.

That's why we tend to focus on imagi-nation gaming. Our approach is sort of like "The Sword and the Flame" meets "AK-47 Republic". Obviously we use our own post-A rules, "Warfare in the Age of Madness" (for now anyway…our new rules covering WWII to the present day for conventional warfare launch in September). But we prefer a lighter approach to gaming and I agree with you: getting too serious about this stuff whether WWII, Korea, present day, or even ancient/medieval is a downer. For us it's 'toy soldiers first' and foremost and we try to infuse that sense of fun into our rules.

For ultra-moderns there are a couple of problems.

A lot of us don't want to play games where our own countrymen are still involved in the conflicts in question.

As noted a lot of the combatants aren't exactly sympathetic – though whether Boko Haram or ISIS are actually worse than the SS is a moot point.

And finally we're simply uninformed about many of the conflicts which are going on.

GorkaMorka works.

Modern imaginations: Bongolesia, along with it's neighters, The Republic De Bunji (The Bunji Republic), The Peoples Democratic Republic of Bongolesia, and The Fandango Republic….

Moderns?..15mm

BangorStu – exactly. The most 'modern' I would consider gaming is probably 1990s Imagi-Nations.

20mm modern figures from Elhiem are still selling well. Now it would be nice to see gaming as the driving force for posts on the ultra modern board and not just news links. If you post a link then the I would think a gaming connection would be expected. Or in ither words, start with how u would game some reported action. Of course there are a lot if news list about WWII too.

Duane

OK good question, I basically switched off UM topics on my TMP page as you say lots of angst over nothing and regular DHing for me :( but doesn't mean I'm not interested in playing the period I am swaying to the imag-nation style of gaming and want to do it on a smallish scale I have round about 150 'moderns'(mostly Afrika types) figures in 28 mm which is not a small investment in this period by no means the rules I've used were Crossfire and AK47 and of course Weasels 5 Core system (great for creating a bit of fluff and scenario making- haven't played it though), I have got the Force on Force and add-ons (bush war) but somehow it has not resonated with me I have just (like 2 hours ago) just got Flying Lead from Ganesha and already given them a read through and they look right for what I'm looking to do solo (any ideas on playing solo with these appreciated) I'm looking to expand the imag-nation aspect as although I can tongue in cheek play typical world affairs nonsense it is not DH or BS making material. So the answer is yes and no I think.
Cheers happy gaming, maybe more input to fantastical world affairs rather than reality might be the way to go and most likely more fun.

I occasionally do ultra modern, 15mm company level, nations tend not to be specified, but the coalition troops look British or American with the possibility of some newly painted figures who look like ANA and ANP being deployed in the next game. They fight "insurgents" who are played by the umpire in games which are often based on published memoires.

Hi JJ

I loved Dragnet so would love to read more about your games. They sound like a great way of bringing some fun to what otherwise can be a very depressing field

My projects:

"Historical or hypothetical?"
Hypothetical but based on real-world what ifs.

"Real world or Imagi-nation?"
Real world – China vs. the West, probably in Taiwan, with a side dish of NK vs. SK 2.0. I also could do Russia venturing west if I get some of their newer tech (most of what I have is for a Cold War project).

"Figure size? Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)?"
3mm, 6mm and 15mm. 3mm for a brigade plus per side (Nordic Weasel's Brigade Commander rules), 6mm for a company plus per side (rules still TBD), 15mm for Force on Force skirmish of special forces, etc.

6mm is the big project.

I do modern with 28mm Empress and Spectre figures. Mostly we use the Force on Force rules and scenarios. Our next game will be based on the 1972 Battle of Mirbat scenario but with current figures.

I've been painting and making scenery like crazy, but I'm getting ready to use the Fighting Season or Skirmish Sangin rules engagements set in Africa. I've got U.S., German, and a generic African army platoons and support, and African insurgents and some Taliban as the opposition. Ultramodern isn't dead in my house.

I hope not as I'm starting up as a Moderns supplier…

To be honest if I want to discuss anything Ultra Modern related, I'd go elsewhere such as LAF as you get a better response – too many people have turned the UM forum off I think.

"And finally we're simply uninformed about many of the conflicts which are going on."

This with spades. Take the DRC conflict – lots of bad news stories about the viler aspects of militia activities there, but for the wargamer, how many post WW2 conflicts pitch reasonably balanced regular armies against each other in combined arms battles with tank, artillery, attack helicopter and ground attack jets? But I'll bet most people wouldn't even think about the gaming potential that the DRC offers on the tabletop. It would lend itself really, really well to a 15mm range.

To some extent it's up to us figure manufacturers (and the rules writers) to redress the information gap, if we want to plug and sell product at least.

Plenty of it going on in clubs, on tables etc. Don't let the rampant comedy and DH bait that is the UM board make you think otherwise :)

Needless to say, I don't think the postings on the board have anything to do with the popularity of the gaming.

My "Moderns" are either made up and impropable military actions (North Korean invasion of Switzerland happened), cold war hypotheticals or imaginary nations (more commonly).

We've played a few "Coalition forces in Afghanistan" games, using Chain Reaction of all things but it wasn't anything anyone thought was better than the games we typically play.

(we play in 15mm and 3mm, though I've been eyeing 10's as well)

* * * * *

As far as ultra modern and TMP?

I honestly put off writing a modern game for a while, due to the impressions this board gave me.
A lot of things that used to be posted here made me feel very uncomfortable and I didn't want to somehow contribute to that.

In the end, I decided to do it, and I am damn proud of the game I wrote but it was very discouraging to feel that way.

* * * * *

For local interest, I have never seen anyone put on a post-cold war game in the area where I live. Not at any of the gaming stores I frequent, not in person.

I game the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan (2001-2013). The next project will be contemporary conflicts in former French Africa. Mali and Chad to start with.
I game both historical and fictional conflicts.
I game both skirmish and platoon level plus conflicts in 15mm.
This upcoming year I plan to see if the high school students I teach will respond well to this period. They have really enjoyed Ancients and WWII in 15mm so I am hopeful. I may get some blowback from parents given the recent nature of the period, but I'll cross that bridge when it comes along.
The reason that I have not posted games is two-fold. First I am still in the process of painting figures vehicles and buildings for the games. Secondly I am a techno-phobe who refuses to learn how to post pictures or video on the inter-web.
Cheers and Good gaming.
Rod I Robertson.

I have a largish collection of Modern and Ultramodern figures, 20 mm skirmish up to a platoon or two and 1/300 for 'bigger' actions……..both real and fictional conflicts,
I like the news reports that are often posted here……..they sometimes lead to interesting clips and snippets on obscure conflicts………
I tend not to post any gaming related stuff here anymore after a post degenerated into a critique of my apostrophe use…….never mind the figures and vehicles pictured……….I just can't be bothered with such pettiness ……..I usually ignore the political diatribe and nonsense anyhow!
This is a gaming related site and nothing here is life or death………a dose of humour, even black humour is often lacking!

Till recently did a lot of FOF! ( Stan+)
Always a bit ambivalent about "playing" something very real to people and I met and played with some who suffered from these real fights.

Ok, then watching the Shield does not mean any lack of respect to drug crime related victims…

With sufficiently tongue in cheek and curiosity it still works fine, though I sold my toys on the subject, but might occasionnally play with them.
The 2FL new rule will wet our appetites, no doubt.

We also have silly pseudo africans hilarious countries infighting ( but would only work for French speakers) with a lot of input from one who actually tested the real ones for a long time.

Overall not taken seriously as a subject ( but the tactics are).

We tried some ultra-modern actions and gave up as most rules give a very poor result in contrast to actual actions that you can read about. Some of this is game play by the players as well, but in our games Western forces would take far higher casualties than they historically do. Having said that, not many gamers want to spend 100 turns creeping into position, then launching a 5-10 turn assault where the enemy suffers close to 100% casualty rates and the friendlies might get a minor wound. That leads to fast paced shootouts ala The Sword and the Flame. Pretty fun, but has little to no realism feel to it.

No, its not.

Clearly though, some here would like it to go away.

It's not dead for me. I'm just getting started. I have a company of U.S. and a company of Russians. I plan to play fictional scenarios as often as possible.

…TMP's Ultra Modern Board would seem to indicate that ultra modern GAMING might be dead.

The board is overwhelmingly dominated by links to news on current military affairs and there's virtually nothing about actual miniature wargaming. The board functions like the Huffington Post of current military affairs news. Remove the TMP logo and one would have no idea that one is reading a site about miniature wargaming

I agree with what you say but I don't want to wave a banner like you – although I don't mind it if you do. As wargamers we play by the rules so when no link is being made between UM and wargaming, and TMP policy states that all posts must be linked, then we are bound to feel there is something wrong. It ain't going to change but a bit of reevaluation and honesty on behalf of Bill would be the correct response. He likes it so he needs to incorporate the news feeds and state that no link needs be made. Ho hum!

Stifle and ignore, and uncheck the board. All resistance is futile.

Nope. Currently playing a Monster Hunter International mini-campaign with my son. Lot of fun. And I have been able to use my Chinese PLA against a baby Otachi!

Do you game ultra moderns (meaning 2005 to 2015)? Yes
Historical or hypothetical? Yes
Real world or Imagi-nation? Yes
Figure size? 28mm/15mm
Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)? Skirmish Mostly

Has anyone considered that the proportion of links to news stories on the UM board might have a relationship to the frequency that the Napoleonic Wars are covered by current media?

I also lament the behaviour in response to those links. The few times I have attempted to discuss gaming related to those events, it gets drowned in comments about the news organizations or the actors.

"Do you game ultra moderns (meaning 2005 to 2015)?"
Yes, I've even created some of my own vehicle models for it.

"Historical or hypothetical?"
Both, but I tend to lean more to hypothetical.

"Real world or Imagi-nation?"
Both

"Figure size?"
15mm, but probably 6mm in time

"Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)?" Individually based with 1to1 figure representation, using up to multiple company sized units.

I tend to avoid the UM board, as it too often addresses a different subject and with a different tone, than my UM gaming discussion with friends.

I'm an Ultra Modern player – stay away from the cesspit that is the UM board here, I was going to say like it was the plague but that is truly unfair to the plague.

Facebook has an ultramodern board that manages to stay about UM GAMING.

Do you game ultra moderns (meaning 2005 to 2015)? Yes

Historical or hypothetical? historical-ish

Real world or Imagi-nation? Real world-ish

Figure size? 1/100-1/87-1/76-1/72 whatever is available (I mix them up)

Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)? no higher than battalion

UM board is full of irrelevant opinion pieces from people with strange world views.

Yes, I definitely game ultramodern. In fact I'd go so far as to say it's been my primary gaming interest for several years now.

I too lament the state of the UM Board on TMP, but other TMP members recently put me 'back in my box' when I said so, and the editor has made it quite clear he doesn't actually expect the UM TMP forum to be about wargaming. So when that's the attitude of the 'management', there's no point fighting it and I'm not going to comment further on that issue.

In answer to the OP's specific questions:

"Do you game ultra moderns (meaning 2005 to 2015)?"
Yes I do – quite a lot. I have a blog about it at: tinytanks3mm.blogspot.com.au

"Historical or hypothetical?"
Mainly hypothetical, since I like gaming larger conventional actions and there aren't too many conventional wars going on. Having said that, I have no issue with gaming real world actions and am considering some Ukraine scenarios for example.

"Real world or Imagi-nation?"
Both. I have some real world forces, or real world forces with some 'what-if' changes (eg. additional equipment) in the future. I also have imagi-nations based on real world forces. They all fight each other. I am happy to game completely fictional scenarios, what-if scenarios, or real world scenarios.

"Figure size?"
3mm on the whole. I have also recently bought a whole bunch of 6mm Microarmor to do some fictional African Imagi-Nation clashes. I also have a good collection of modern 28mm for skirmish gaming (company and below).

"Command Level (skirmish, platoon/company, battalion, higher)?"
Mostly high level – multiple Battalions / Brigades. But I do a little skirmish gaming too.

I'd encourage players to stick with Ultramodern GAMING, as it's really interesting IMHO. Just ignore the garbage on the board and try and win it back with some decent gaming discussion and content.

Dynaman 8789 said: "Facebook has an ultramodern board that manages to stay about UM GAMING."

What's it called? Can we get a link?

The ultra-modem board here is utterly ruined by a constant procession of current affairs news items posted by one member. It detracts completely from a board which should be about wargaming.

Ultra Modern was never alive to begin with….

UM is my favorite period, truth be told. I play it to explore possibilities. I prefer to game scenarios between like powers of similar capabilities. Granted, no game will accurately predict real world performance, but I enjoy just seeing how things go.

I game possible scenarios, though they don't have to be likely. I don't enjoy gaming current actual conflicts, probably because I find dissimilar combat scenarios really uninteresting for the reasons aegiscg47 stated as well as it being too close to home.

I mainly am interested in seeing how the latest equipment and tactics might work if a major conflict erupted. Again, it might not be accurate, but fascinating to explore. As a former analyst, it has always fascinated me. When I was in the US Navy, we were mainly focused on the Soviets. Our job was to assess actual capabilities, not hate them, and not buy into our adversaries as either supermen or inept. Getting it wrong either way would have serious repercussions for my fellow servicemen. I use the same principals now. Some people did fail at this, but the best analysts dealt in realities- not stereotypes or comic book villainy.

I don't enjoy imagi-nations since made up forces for made up nations hold no real appeal for me in the modern world (though I love fantasy, and love alternate history or worlds where things are based on real world nations for some reason). For me UM is more about exploration, and so I like my UM real world.

I'd rather explore these themes on a tabletop than some idiot leader try them in the real world.

I am pretty politically middle of the road, and when I play UM I try to leave political bias aside. I don't understand why people claim that you can't do UM without politics. I find it quite easy. Just keep it plausible and based on real world TOEs. If you play Germany in a WWII scenario, does it require you to sympathize with the Nazis? Or is it an interesting set of military challenges to explore? I don't get why the same rules don't apply to UM.

I play 28mm skirmish, 10mm (and 1/144) for larger scenarios and would love to get into 3mm for bigger battles.

I read the UM listings regularly and I have to say much of it is pretty benign, though a lot of it is click bait. It only gets bad when people read more into a topic than is there or bring their biases to the table. I also find the characterization of it as some neo con playground exaggerated. I just as often see silly reactions from the other side.

For example, I find a Chinese invasion of Taiwan with US support fascinating. It's an interesting tactical and strategic scenario. Do I fear the Chinese doing this? Not really. is it possible? Yes. Do I see the Chinese as an imminent threat to the US? No. They are an adversary in a general sense, but we have many areas where we cooperate and should continue to do so. Does any of this matter any more than if I wanted to play a 1930's Plan Crimson Scenario (which was about as likely as a US war with Santa Claus)? No. It's just a game with interesting toys. And like most gamers, I want to play it from all sides to see how the challenges play out.

Yet if someone discusses China in a UM thread, I'm as likely to see 'You warmongerers should stop being paranoid- China is no threat, so why game this?' as 'China copies everything we make and we are all doomed if we ignore them." I find both sentiments useless when discussing interesting Chinese conflicts for a game scenario, and both are a needless waste of time.

I frankly wish UM was about dispassionate discussions of platform capabilities, tactics, paint schemes, and interesting scenarios. But the folks who can't keep their political biases contained on both sides ruin it for everyone.

Difficult to imagine a US war with Santa. Though his home will become a potential battlefield and he may have relocate to the abandoned secret Nazi base in the Antarctic. How would Santa Claus be armed? And would he be allied with Det Moroz or be in an arms race with other Claus's – Det Moroz has this really powerful frost belching staff but lacks Santa's heavy 8 reindeer airmobile long range chariot – just has a light troika for battlefield mobility?

Having several outstanding books on the Rhodesian Bush War filled with scenarios I jumped into it in a big way when I saw Eureka's stunning sculpts in 28mm. Signed up for more in the "100 Club" which figures quickly hit 100+ and died there. Years pass and we get RAR set and promises of dismounted Grey's Scouts and other goodies. Still nothing. Very discouraging. Then today I stumble onto "Underfire Miniatures" with virtually a complete line of Rhodesian forces including civilians but in 20mm. This is truly the Golden Age for miniatures but the little shiny s don't come cheap. If you can find it, "The Elite" on the Rhodesian SAS provides enough gaming material for skirmishes up to full scale battles. Written by Barbara Cole, wife of a member. As the Rhodesians used the FAL the figures are good for African Wars circa 1960-1990. My 2 cents worth.

Good post, TGerritsen, well said :)

Not dead. There are some excellent models available in several scales and plenty of 'What ifs?' to consider. The equipment is the most varied and makes the heavy stuff of earlier periods look puny. We're intending that it will be played more and will have the rules to enable that soon.

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