"For those awaiting Khurasan re-opening..." Topic

It has happened…

Just FYSA.

Amazing coincidence…

Legartija Mike is on the same schedule.

Meaning?

I'm surprised he didn't post an update here?

Perhaps Larry Dunn will be making the announcement.

Bill,

Some people would be interested in doing business with Khurasan.

In case people don't know it seems Bill banished him for a grievous violation of the rules. Whatever. Such action, if the violation is true, would be appropriate. But the juvenile snarky behavior I can do without.

Your snarky sarcasm only reveals your own personal shortcomings and belittles yourself.

You disappoint me. Again.

DH away.

Just bought a couple of the 28mm Polecats that are finally back in stock. Thanks for the heads up that he was open again.

I picked up some infantry last night and am curious as o when he will release new vehicles.

Thanks,

Pat

But the juvenile snarky behavior I can do without.

Your snarky sarcasm only reveals your own personal shortcomings and belittles yourself.

You disappoint me. Again.

I think there's a high probability that Larry Dunn is our friend Lagartija Mike. And it seems very surprising that both went on vacation at exactly the same time. To the day.

Larry Dunn feels he has been humiliated twice by TMP.

Lagartija Mike says his objective is to humiliate me.

I think we've got at least probable cause at this point…

I was poking around online, trying to figure out when Khurasan might be open for business again. I found the Jon-Larry Dunn-Lagartja Mike connection by synthesizing information from multiple forums outside of TMP.

It's a bummer he went the route he did. There are a lot of nice toys I would like to get from him, but after his personal attacks on me as Lagartja Mike (and generally bigoted behaviour in general) I have no desire to give him a penny of my money. I am glad I discovered this shortly *before* having several thousand dollars to blow on hobby stuff rather than *after.*

Rebel Mike, Zombiesmith, and whoever is running Wargames Factory will be getting a tidy little profit soon :-)

…and generally bigoted behaviour in general…

Yes, that is another item to consider. Writing as "Da Bish" on another forum, Larry was very homophobic and seemed to have an issue with transexuals. Similarly, homophobia (and attacks on the TMP editors) is a common theme in Lagartija Mike's posts.

This is the ongoing armpit stink that no amount deodorant will suppress.

I come here to find out about miniatures. I get DH when I say anything about politics so I will keep my mouth shut. This is after all a site for wargaming news and chat. I don't give a flying snip for someones political views sexual orientation or what they think of anyones sexual orientation. If someone in the real world wants to hate on something but they sell me wargames stuff at a good price that I like and give good service then that's all I worry about. In the real world we have all been A-holes at times. Might be we are A-holes all the time. But here its about WARGAMES so I try to leave my views of others at the door. Be good maybe if more of us tried to do that. As I have been DH for not leaving my views at the door I shall try to do that and limit them to wargames. Take any of what I have said anyway you like. I don't give a hoot. I am here for my lead addiction and nothing more. Thanks for the info Mute Bystander.

Bill,
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if more people will buy Khurasans miniatures than boycott them, if it turns out he is indeed LM.

The Frothers lot are rolling around laughing their heads off whenever Mike posts here on TMP, and to be honest you have annoyed so many people over the years that most TMPers secretly enjoy LM's drive-bys too. You could just be driving up his sales by unmasking him, although you don't really have a clue who LM is anyway, do you? Also, be honest, you have absolutely no power to stop him from posting here.

Have you ever stopped to think that your behaviour consistently leads to these kind of farcical situations? Collectively, these events must be leading to a huge revenue loss for you.

Bills house Bills rules as the mantra goes. Sounds like a fantastic business model.

you have annoyed so many people over the years that most TMPers secretly enjoy LM's drive-bys too.

Really? Please don't presume to speak for those you carry no mandate from.

My disagreeing with some of Bill's editorial style (and I do) does not mean I enjoy any of what Mike/Larry/Jon/etc does, says or is.

Sorry for not joining in on the cheerleading on this one…

John T

I said "most" not "all". If you're going to chuck unnecessarily pompous language such as "mandate" around then at least try to get things right. Maybe I should have written "some" instead of "most", but thats really splitting hairs. The general thrust and theme of my post was right on the money, regardless.

And writing something controversial that nobody else has directly said and will that will probably get me banned is hardly "joining in cheerleading".

Once he gets his T64's to market he'll be getting some large orders from me. His kit is amongst the best available, and his products have done more to keep me rolling dice over the past six years than any other manufacturer.

For those who want to keep up to date on Khurasan miniatures he has a Facebook page;
link

That is perhaps the best way to keep up with the company's product. I will second McWong73 in that Khurasan is the one that got me to go whole hog into 15 mm Science Fiction. I will still buy his product as it is some of the best quality. The actions of "Jon" or whoever he is are reprehensible but I also agree that being snarky and unprofessional in return does not help Bill's side of the argument. Carry on…

"This is the song that never ends, It goes on and on my friends…"

What can I say about the Noahs Ork guy that won't get me sent to the cornfield?

Nothing I reckon, as none of it would be good.

And 'bad cess to him' would be the nicest thing I could come up with.

I said "most" not "all".

That's still an unwarranted assumption.

Oh and sorry for the big words…

Maybe I should have written "some" instead of "most", but thats really splitting hairs.

And accurate. So let's try sticking to that, eh?

The general thrust and theme of my post was right on the money, regardless.

In your – and probably some other users opinions. Not mine though. If I'm allowed an alternative opinion to yours, that is.

And writing something controversial that nobody else has directly said and will that will probably get me banned is hardly "joining in cheerleading".

Ahh, perhaps that's me not making myself clear: that was me saying I don't want to be "joining in cheerleading". I wasn't actually accusing anyone else of it.

I think that the whole Khurasan issue is a difficult one, as I said in an earlier post. Some of the material he has released has been top notch and very little of it is anything other than good. The whole issue is therefore tinged with regret: if he made crap, he'd be easy to just ignore. But he doesn't.

Shame…

Me? I choose not to buy from people with (what appears to be) his attitude to other manufacturers: if the evidence against him is what it appears to be then I just don't want to add to his income and – effectively – condone what appears to be an anti-wargaming (and certainly grossly unethical) – approach to business.

But I accept that no, there is no conclusive proof that I have in front of me right now that he does and says what he is alleged to have done and said. But no one is trying to say he should do time in the slammer. I just choose to keep my distance.

And to do that I just want to hold back on my support of him – or any other manufacturer – that I suspect has a poor attitude to other gamers and businesses in what is, after all, essentially a close knit, cottage industry.

I'd do the same in the 'real' world out side of toy soldiers, and do: I don't buy Apple products for much the same reason. I don't buy Starbucks coffee. That sort of stuff.

I think – to pick up on Kallman's last comment – that while Bill has been – and continues to be – a less than perfect human being* on the editorial front, and I will criticise him where I think he has warrented it, I don't think that – in this circumstance, with the amount of sheer provocation that has been supplied by Jon/Larry/whatever – his response has been either snarky or inappropriate. But that's just my opinion (again, assuming I'm allowed one)

Does anyone disagree with the following statement:

Sock-puppeting is "a bad thing" and using it to slag off other manufacturers, in this tiny microcosm we inhabit is worse.

Yes? No??

If anyone agrees with that, I happen to also think that the garbage that "Lagartija Mike" has come out with (here and elsewhere) is reprehensible and I hope that there will be more compelling evidence provided to suggest that they are the same person. But, for the current lack of that, I'll just choose to abstain from indulging in more Khurasan toys, just in case.

Looks like – while I'm not in my own on that one – I suspect I'm also not in a majority either. Never mind, each to their own.

What I won't be doing, however, is making statements where I say the majority of TMPers think this way, or that way. I'm just speaking for myself, as I think we all should.

As I usually say at this point:

own your words and put your name on your thoughts and postings (as Mike/Jon/Khurasan and many others should perhaps do) and we wouldn't be having this discussion:

Who steals my purse steals trash…
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.

The world of the web would be a better place if we all stopped this stupid obsession with 'cool' pen names.

Just my opinion, obviously.

John "Grand Worshipful Master of the Temple Rouge"** Treadaway

PS Noahs Ork (or whatever your name is) you've been a member for less than four weeks: who says you know what members on TMP think? How presumptive***?

* not like the rest of us, eh?

** well I like to sound as pompous as possible, indubitably…

*** Just trying to ratchet up the pomposity another notch

Thank you John. I agree with you. Now we are minority of 2!

martin

Sign me up as three. Very well said, John. If there is a connection between Khurasan and LM, and there does seem to be some evidence for such a connection, it makes me very sad indeed. LM seems to be a deeply troubled person,one with all too much time on his hands, and this is always a bad combination.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if more people will buy Khurasans miniatures than boycott them, if it turns out he is indeed LM.

I think the real question to be seen is whether sculptors will continue to work with him, now that they know his actual identity and some of his reprehensible views.

The Frothers lot are rolling around laughing their heads off whenever Mike posts here on TMP…

Actually, they're bored with it. Same old, same old.

…and to be honest you have annoyed so many people over the years that most TMPers secretly enjoy LM's drive-bys too.

Spoken like someone with a lot more than "four weeks" of TMP experience… more like someone who has been tossed out of TMP before.

You could just be driving up his sales by unmasking him…

Or maybe someone reputable will buy up the product lines.

…although you don't really have a clue who LM is anyway, do you?

I've laid out my argument for why LM is most likely Larry Dunn, but as I said previously, it is only "probable cause."

Also, be honest, you have absolutely no power to stop him from posting here.

Nobody can stop someone 100% of the time who uses IP hiding tricks. But we usually nuke his posts fast enough that only a handful of people see them. He's just a minor annoyance.

Have you ever stopped to think that your behaviour consistently leads to these kind of farcical situations? Collectively, these events must be leading to a huge revenue loss for you.

I will admit that initially, TMP took a loss of about 10% of our paying membership, and perhaps 1% of our advertising revenue. However, that situation has reversed itself, with paid memberships at record levels and advertising as near-record levels.

Bills house Bills rules as the mantra goes. Sounds like a fantastic business model.

I am grateful every day, to the hobby community and to God above, that TMP continues to thrive. It is a great pride to me that the company now supports, not just me, but four additional full-time editors, and is making a fantastic change in their lives in terms of quality of living.

One more nail in the coffin – thanks to some sleuthing from one of our members, and a check of the logs – it turns out that LM and "Khurasan Jon" can be traced to the same general city/area during the course of one discussion on the forum.

You might be right, but the IP addresses trace to New York City and Connecticut, and we know Larry Dunn lives in Connecticut and works in NYC, correct?

"Sock-puppeting is "a bad thing" and using it to slag off other manufacturers, in this tiny microcosm we inhabit is worse."

Deception is all well and good in warfare and wargaming (well for me, anyway, as I *am* incorrigible), however not when it comes to business practices towards consumers, and IMHO especially so when one is dealing with a cottage industry and a small community of consumers and enthusiasts that make the cottage industry possible.

If a manufacturer or retailer cannot be up front about who they are and what they have to offer, and cannot resist the infantile temptation to play the internet troll or employ sockpuppetry, then they do not deserve my hard earned hobby dollar.

End of discussion.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

I must get his 6mm Jasmine Throne !!!!! Hurry UP !!!!! I'm old !!

For a bunch of old farts playing with dollies there sure is a lot of drama here.

Bill's house, Bill's rules, If you don't want to pay the piper then don't break the rules.

I really like Khurasans's stuff and enjoyed see he's new stuff on here, his stuff was good enough that he didn't have to bash others with "Sock Puppets". But he broke the rules and now has to pay the piper.

If you wish to buy his goods then do so, if not then don't, I my self will buy his stuff but with respect to our host I will not post anything about them here.

I believe that is fair enough.

Wow! Sorry, but currently Khurasan has in my book far more credibility then the guy running this site, especially when I look at their past behavior I can actually accredit to them.

The 'proof' that's been shown and someone is being 'convicted' on is just insane! Unless they had the same IP address at the same time and the IP address can be tied to a single address, that is no proof you have. It seems that folks here have no clue how easy it is to use proxies…

Bill your doing more to damage TMP's reputation with every spat you have with folks here, than any badmouthing other users have done. Users that have broken the rules can be banned, sure, but this prosecution complex is going far beyond banning a few users that actually broke the rules.

Cergorach

That's exactly how the sock puppet antics were discovered. Same IP's , same registered address and they all pointed to Larry Dunne. I'd like to see what Larry Dunne thinks or even listen to his defence? Has he actually denied it? Has he said someone is making this up? Has he gone on Facebook and laughed it off as nonsense? You think his silence on this is a good thing? Does anyone know his name, his return address, contact details. Ask his past suppliers what they think?

Ps his return address is the same address Larry Dunne owns. Larry Dunne has consistent evidence of similar poor behaviour in the past. Buy his stuff and support him. Tell me you don't care I'll still buy it. I can understand that. I can not understand the denial of the facts of what he did. It's 99.9% correct and bill has done a brave thing in documenting it and acting on it!

For a bunch of old farts playing with dollies there sure is a lot of drama here.

So very true ! On many levels !

but with respect to our host I will not post anything about them here

On the assumption that Bill's right on this one (see Armies Army, above) how about a bit of respect for the other traders he's trashed with sock puppets?

Or don't you care about that?

There's an old saying that you shouldn't use the glue if you aren't prepared to shoot the horse. To mix metaphors, try walking a mile in the shoes of a trader that's been needlessly attacked by a sock puppet for no good reason. Or is it all fair game on the anonymous web?

I don't know (and the key phrase is) "beyond reasonable doubt" if what Khurasan has been accused of is what he actually did. If this were a court of law (which, obviously, it isn't) the situation is this: sometimes people are convicted because they plain old admit stuff; sometimes they're found guilty because they were seen with twenty eye witnesses and CCTV footage, even though they still deny it; and sometimes guilt is decided on the simple balance of all the evidence: ie "beyond reasonable doubt".

If Khuraan isn't Larry/Mike/Cheech and all the others, and if he didn't sock puppet and trash other traders in the process… if he came forward with evidence to show his irrefutable innocence, I'd be the first to shout at Bill (and others) for witch hunting.

But he hasn't done that, has he? Which rather smacks of a degree of guilt, to me anyway. But… The case isn't locked shut yet:

If he'd said anything at all, I'd listen and way up the evidence. But he says nothing in the open. Sure: claim "the fifth" as the yanks would say. The law in the UK is a little different in terms of what one's silence implies and what can be inferred from it (it was changed a few decades ago). Where does that leave us and him?

For me… I think his silence is rather damning and – as I rather care for all of the traders he probably* trashed via sock puppetry – I'll keep assuming his guilt until someone proves otherwise.

Hey, I don't want him arrested, pilloried or put in the stocks: there's not enough evidence for that*. But I am happy to spend money elsewhere, even if he is selling fine looking minis, blood diamonds, or ten pound notes for a fiver.

But – if he wants to stand up before a jury of his peers – I'm all ears.

John T

* say "Beyond reasonable doubt" again

So this is why there is no more Khurasan on here?
I have to admit I have visited a lot less since there were no updates from him only came by today to see if there were new pics and found this argument.

A situation where everyone loses and no one wins, it would be sad if it wasn't all over grown men and their toys.

A situation where everyone loses and no one wins, it would be sad if it wasn't all over grown men and their toys

Agreed in principal. The only caveat I would add, however, is that some of the folks involved* are trying to earn a living with this business and so it tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth.

John T

* not me, I hasten to add

How does one prove innocence (or guilt) when accused of sock-puppetry though?

Brother Jim: I guess – if one were to be accused – you could at least start by actually denying it and see how that goes…

If I was accused (granted difficult as I actually use my name to post) it's the first thing I'd do.

I'd be a start, wouldn't it?

John T

As if he would get a chance to make a fair statement here…

I'm not saying guilty or innocent, what I am saying is that there is no way he'd be allowed to make a counter argument here.

I would like him to be innocent, because i really like his stuff and have bought a bunch of it over the years. but….his silence is deafening.

As a person, I dont much like Johnny Depp. not at all really. But I still line up to see the next Pirates movie. He doesnt live in my hood, so what he is really like does not affect me in any way.

bills house, bills rules. And the no sockpuppets is a good one, especialy as excited as some members get about both thier games and history.

So, I am sad it happened, or that "Jon" felt it was needed. But I will still buy from him, as long as he keeps putting out quality product. And I really wish he would get around to releasing those pirates in 15mm he previewed

owen

As if he would get a chance to make a fair statement here…

I asked for his explanation, but he stopped talking when I presented the evidence to him.

Bill your doing more to damage TMP's reputation with every spat you have with folks here, than any badmouthing other users have done. Users that have broken the rules can be banned, sure, but this prosecution complex is going far beyond banning a few users that actually broke the rules.

I never had a spat with Khurasan. I had no idea he was actually "Da Bish" on Frothers, until Frothers revealed that.

Then one of our members found something suspicious, I looked at the logs… and the whole Larry Dunn matter was exposed.

The only problem I have is the "Aketon Syndrome" that his release schedule has.
Much promised but as yet not released.

What is the Larry Dunn matter?

Google link:

link

Good call Mr H: some of that historical stuff I hadn't even read.

Disreputable.

John T

Well I guess some people really need to have a life