"Will the Army's Next "Beretta M9" Be a Beretta APX?" Topic

"One year ago, the U.S. Army hit gunmaker Beretta with three shots, center-mass. Deriding the company's ubiquitous M9 Semiautomatic pistol as insufficiently accurate, lethal, and reliable, the Army opened a competition to replace it with a new weapon -- the Modular Handgun System.

And then the Army finished the job with a control shot: "The Army's Configuration Control Board [declined] to evaluate the M9A3."

What was wrong with the Beretta M9
Although it's been the Army's most popular handgun for years, with more than 200,000 units in service, long familiarity with the M9 seems to have bred some contempt. "The 9mm doesn't score high with soldier feedback," Army Maneuver Center of Excellence officer Daryl Easlick told Military.com. "It's got reliability issues; the open slide design allows contaminates in. The slide-mounted safety doesn't do well when you are trying to clear a stoppage -- you inadvertently de-cock and safe the weapon system."…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

It's a 9mm.

No surprise there on the lack of stopping power.

Mako (or anyone else, for that matter) do you think that the recent US decision to allow the military to use civilian issue hollow point ammo will increase the stopping power of 9mm to a more 'satisfactory' level?

John T

Hugely. The performance of recent 9x19mm expanding designs are in the same ballpark as the best .40S&W and .45ACP hollowpoints- so much so that the FBI now concedes that some 9x19mm designs outperform these calibres. Take a read of their findings that are discussed here;

link

.45ACP is still superior if you are forced to shoot ball (full metal jacketed rounds). If current generation expanding ammunition is available the performance gap disappears. Additionally, 9x19mm is easier to shoot and easier to shoot accurately and thus is particularly well suited for personnel who receive very little instruction and range time with pistols (ie 95% of military users).

That should help somewhat, but the 9mm is still rather an anemic cartridge.

In like comparisons, the .40 and .45 will still be a bit better, since they are larger, heavier rounds, so provide more kinetic energy, general, all other things being equal.

In like comparisons, the .40 and .45 will still be a bit better, since they are larger, heavier rounds, so provide more kinetic energy, general, all other things being equal.

Sure, and I'm assuming that the .50 Desert Eagle will do even better on that basis, but will a 9mm with 'hollow point' be 'enough' for a military?

I've fired both but not for a little while and at nothing more dangerous than a paper target so I have no real, practical knowledge (though I found both a 45 auto and the 9mm Beretta easy enough to shoot tight groups with when not under pressure – ie at a range).

John T

9mm have very low "stopping power"…

I have seen guys with 8 or 9 shots in their bodies run like rabits and still shooting againts you … (then dead because of bleeding)… but also see guys with only one .45 impact to went down and with no no desire to continue fighting…

Amicalement
Armand

Hi Armand,

Would you mind telling me a little more about that incident(s)? And specifically what were the circumstances- bullet types (ball or hollowpoint at least?), shot placement (where did the rounds actually hit), who were the adversaries and what were they wearing (heavy or light clothing, body armour etc?) Where they effected by narcotics or alcohol? Who were the shooters in terms of training and experience (as some are trained to continue to fire without pause until the target is down and unresponsive)?

I ask for this detail as I've just completed a fairly extensive book on modern military small arms and have found good solid data on actual military shootings with pistols difficult to research simply because they are so relatively rare. Even in the SOF world, pistols are very much the emergency backup and the vast majority of shootings are conducted by carbines. Most stories of failures with the 9x19mm I tried to track down for instance proved to be rather apocryphal in nature.

Any further detail would thus be most appreciated.

Many thanks,
Leigh

Not really something to be remember in detail here my friend.

I only said you that it was a police incident back on the 80 , the bullets were 9mm local fabrication , the weapons Browning the bad guys were criminals no narcotic or alcohol in their blood and the shooters were police trained man.

If you were in some shooting… it's very confuse and not as the movies show up… but you can fixed some images of what happened…

You take note about the impacts after the shooting…

Hope it's help you.

Amicalement
Armand

PS If you want send me a PM