flashman2 | 22 Jul 2015 8:28 a.m. PST |
I realize that there were many more historical games played at Historicon then non historical games but from the pictures I've seen, it looks like there were quite a few Mummy, Zombie, bug games going on. I think the trend is spinning towards more non historical games at HMGS conventions. Should we drop the H from HMGS? |
Jlundberg | 22 Jul 2015 8:32 a.m. PST |
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Repiqueone | 22 Jul 2015 8:43 a.m. PST |
I think, over time, it will become an aspirated H and simply not pronounced. History is, after all, such a grind and requires too much reading and thinking! Just give us a 64 page Codex and let them paint the figures any old way-that's the way to game! HMGS is slowly bowing to the inevitable day when one 85 year old man will be running the only historical game at the convention. It will be given an award as the last of its type to be run at Historicon, which will then change its name to Hystoricon, run by the also renamed Hysterical Miniatures Gaming Society. |
Winston Smith | 22 Jul 2015 8:48 a.m. PST |
Get off my lawn, you damn kids!!!!! |
Extra Crispy | 22 Jul 2015 8:48 a.m. PST |
HMGS exists to entertain their members. If they want all historical games they can limit the show to those. If they want to include others they can do that too. It's about boys and their toys, it's not the Smithsonian…. |
Extra Crispy | 22 Jul 2015 8:49 a.m. PST |
Hey, let's go TP Winston's house! |
Mute Bystander | 22 Jul 2015 8:54 a.m. PST |
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Mister Tibbles | 22 Jul 2015 8:55 a.m. PST |
Replace it with an F for "Fun". Then everyone is happy. :-) |
Big Red | 22 Jul 2015 9:03 a.m. PST |
Except for the founders of H MGS. It was formed to promote historical miniature gaming that was being pushed out by boardgames and SF/Fantasy games at conventions. If this no longer applies than by all means drop the H. |
WaltOHara | 22 Jul 2015 9:10 a.m. PST |
We need to be careful of using phrases like "A lot of" or "quite a few" or even "an inordinate number of" when referencing the non-historical/alternative games against the clearly historical ones at a convention. Here's the ACTUAL numbers from the last HISTORICON.
Source: Events Spreadsheet extracted on 6/18/2015, Historicon 2015 (Caveat: Doesn't take into consideration games cancelled at the convention) Is 20% too much for you? It wouldn't indicate any kind of majority of non-historical games. Or are you just trying to stir up trouble? V/R Walt |
Murphy | 22 Jul 2015 9:10 a.m. PST |
First, they came for the "H"….. |
Double G | 22 Jul 2015 9:19 a.m. PST |
Take away the "H?"……..Gee, what's next, take down the Confederate flag and remove it from license plates? Oh wait…………… |
Larry R | 22 Jul 2015 9:30 a.m. PST |
there were far more historical games than non-historical played this past weekend |
CoffeeCooler | 22 Jul 2015 9:34 a.m. PST |
I played in three historical and one fantasy "Zombie" game. As for me fantasy games are not the problem but all of the WW2 games! Ok, tongue firmly planted in my cheek. We all have a preferences for play. I enjoy the historical as they are extremely fun and rewarding. The non historical are just plan fun. My girls when they have attended with me enjoyed both. Not a sermon just a thought…I'm also an HMGS member. |
Gonsalvo | 22 Jul 2015 9:53 a.m. PST |
I wouldn't worry about it; most of us enjoy and/or run some non historical games as well as historical. As long as the non historical games don't squeeze out the historical ones, it isn't an issue. I'd estimate that the non historical percentage has remained quite steady at roughly 20% of the total for the past 120 years. |
pzivh43 | 22 Jul 2015 10:08 a.m. PST |
And zombie games are too, historical. It's gonna happen, I tell ya!! |
boy wundyr x | 22 Jul 2015 10:08 a.m. PST |
Love it that gnomes get their own category Walt! And there's probably some sway in the pulp category too, Doc Savage isn't historical, but a fictional 1930s bank robbery scenario is just as historical as a fictional age of pirates or WWII scenario. |
Joes Shop | 22 Jul 2015 10:09 a.m. PST |
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Mr Elmo | 22 Jul 2015 10:16 a.m. PST |
If you remove the H, won't you basically have Adepticon? |
Inkpaduta | 22 Jul 2015 10:38 a.m. PST |
No. I found that the non-historical type games really attracted my son when he was small. Now, when he is older, we go to Cons and all he wants to do is play Historical. It draws kids into the hobby. |
enfant perdus | 22 Jul 2015 11:01 a.m. PST |
This argument has arisen at least twice over the last 15 years. Some folks have proposed quotas:"No more than 15% of the events may be non-historical." Then we all argue about what is and isn't historical. Some folks have proposed giving absolute scheduling preference for historical events. Then we all argue about what is and isn't historical. Some folks have proposed that the M is just as important as the H. Then we all argue about whether a non-historical miniatures game gets preference over a historical boardgame, or CCG. And we also argue what is and isn't historical. If the membership and attendees are generally content, I see no issue. |
GuyG13 | 22 Jul 2015 11:19 a.m. PST |
Hard to believe I ran the only Mexican War game at Historicon. My son and I ran his WW2 Mein Zombie game 3 times, does that count as historical? We did have British fighting Germans…. |
WaltOHara | 22 Jul 2015 11:22 a.m. PST |
Enfant Perdus totally nailed it! (and then we all argue about what is and isn't historical). Usually this conversation starts within 24 hours of the last day of the convention, with lots of hand-wringing about the end times coming if we don't change our ways. This year it started a month BEFORE the convention, so, yeah, that's progress. |
Tgerritsen | 22 Jul 2015 11:30 a.m. PST |
What about the S part? Can we argue over that? Talk about tempest in a teapot. Maybe HMGS can buy a 10'x10' piece of astro turf and rent it by the hour so people can take turns standing on it and telling everyone else to get off their lawn. As someone who loves both the H and non-H games, I would rather have the choice. As long as the majority is H, I'm not too fearful of the rest. |
PJ ONeill | 22 Jul 2015 11:41 a.m. PST |
Walt- thanks for doing the count, it's nice to know what we are actually talking about. I'm in the historical corner and appreciate the 4-1 ratio. I'm not going to worry about non-historical until it gets to be over 50%. Then we get that GM with the single over-50% game, abduct and brainwash him (her) :-) |
Rrobbyrobot | 22 Jul 2015 11:43 a.m. PST |
Just what the H are you talkin' about? |
advocate | 22 Jul 2015 11:53 a.m. PST |
I think there is a clear category of Heavy Machine Guns, that can be distinguished from Medium, Light and sub-machine guns. So, no. |
Rudysnelson | 22 Jul 2015 11:57 a.m. PST |
The amount of non historical games at an hugs show was an issue way back. For decades it was a topic of discussion. Even when the show was in Carrolton, the first non-historical game that I remember was princess Ryan's Space Marines. One one fiction event but that caused the question to be asked then as well. |
Jlundberg | 22 Jul 2015 12:09 p.m. PST |
If nobody wanted to play pure historical games, the games would die out since nobody is going to go to the trouble to run a game for no gamers. Contariwise, if nobody wanted to play in the non historical games, they would die out. |
Winston Smith | 22 Jul 2015 12:34 p.m. PST |
I am reminded of a call once to Rush Limbaugh. The caller was upset that there was a Miss Black America beauty pageant. He suggested that there should be an all white NBA and NFL. Rush was stunned by that. "Who would watch THAT???" I remember the first gaming conventions I went to had boardgames, miniatures, D&D, etc. I know why we have our own conventions but it doesn't mean I don't miss the old times. |
pacarat | 22 Jul 2015 1:40 p.m. PST |
Hmmm… over the course of the weekend: I saw crowded tables at every "non-historical" event I happened to wander by – numerous zombie games, the Martian invasion games, Martian VSF, SW, ST, X-wing, etc., etc. I saw numerous empty tables with no games on them at all. I saw both of the above, during the same time slots. |
Bumbydad | 22 Jul 2015 2:33 p.m. PST |
Actually, if we get TOO literal about "historical" vs. "non-historical" games, wouldn't that mean that scenarios not drawn directly from actual battles should be classified as "non-historical"? DBA match-ups between, say, Aztecs and a French Hundred Years War army would not be allowed, right? And no games about a theoretical war between Britain and the U.S. during the ACW should be permitted either! Why do people fret about this? Is anyone forcing anybody to play a game they don't want to? Are the complainers' lives so devoid of controversy that they feel compelled to make this a point of debate? Zeesh. |
Bill N | 22 Jul 2015 3:11 p.m. PST |
Have I ever played "historical" games? Most of the games I play involve historical forces but hypothetical situations. When I do play a game based on a real battle, it quickly tends to follow an entirely different course than the actual action. OTOH I've participated in a few Middle Earth actions that, with different figures, could easily have passed for ancient or medieval battles. |
ACWBill | 22 Jul 2015 3:25 p.m. PST |
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Stepman3 | 22 Jul 2015 3:30 p.m. PST |
How many times can "Waterloo" be re-fought? Think of all the non-historical games as being a gateway drug to historical wargames. That's how I got into it. Wargames, not pot. That's another story… |
Schogun | 22 Jul 2015 4:09 p.m. PST |
HCon may have started as "H" but it has grown into the US's largest "M" convention. I stopped going to Origins and GenCon because there weren't enough minis games to play in. Also, with so many people moaning about the graying of the hobby and the need to attract young gamers, non-historical games do just that. And as Stepman3 says, maybe these gamers will move to pure historical games as they expand their knowledge and interests. HMGS as a society can stay "H"istorical and continue to promote the genre. Historicon can be whatever it has become. I step off my soapbox. Or maybe it broke already and I fell on my head. |
historygamer | 22 Jul 2015 4:47 p.m. PST |
Gee, I wonder why HMGS has removed its corporate charter and bylaws from its web page? |
capncarp | 22 Jul 2015 4:54 p.m. PST |
Non-historical games…the gateway drug. |
114th Pennsylvania | 22 Jul 2015 5:39 p.m. PST |
Well I am sorry to say I contributed to this debacle. I ran 2 F&I, 1 Boxer Rebellion and 1 Pulp. That pushed the average up since its 25%. My Team ran 9 games over the weekend with 6 being Historical and 3 being non-historical, ah Bleep, that makes 33%..its going up. All games where sold out and we even made room for more players to take commands. In the end, did we have fun? You bet! BTW- The PELA my Team won was for a Historical game you will be happy to know and Wargamer's Illustrated took pictures of another Historical one. |
Blutarski | 22 Jul 2015 6:12 p.m. PST |
Re the matter of judging the ratio of "historical" versus "other" games, the HMGS Catalog classifications are not by themselves perfectly reliable measures. It is necessary to read the game write-ups. For example, check and see how many games classified in the catalog under "WW2" actually featured zombies. B |
Yellow Admiral | 22 Jul 2015 6:52 p.m. PST |
That's not quite as funny as you think. There was a galley game on real water at Navcon 2013 in Milwaukee:
That had to be much harder to pull off than real grass on a "land" battlefield. (Thanks to War Artisan for getting photographic evidence of this…) Besides, I've seen plenty of natural ground covers growing right in my own yard that would make a totally adorable grassy or scrubby landscape. If I had just kept the great sheets of moss that I peeled off the rotting shake garage roof back in 2010, I could have made some myself. I swear that moss was nearly indestructible… - Ix |
edmuel2000 | 22 Jul 2015 8:12 p.m. PST |
"Historical" has long since become an empty term. |
historygamer | 22 Jul 2015 8:15 p.m. PST |
Blutarski: Good point. At another recent con a theme ACW game was actually an ACW zombie game. While the non-history count listed at Hcon might have been 20%, at other cons it has been as high as 30%. Still, I think the horse is out of the barn, the genie is out of the bottle, and HMGS has jumped the shark. |
kayjay | 23 Jul 2015 6:58 a.m. PST |
"Gee, I wonder why HMGS has removed its corporate charter and bylaws from its web page?" Link to bylaws on HMGS web page (You have to be logged in) link Charter is not posted, and as far as I can tell never was. However I quoted the relevant part of our charter in an article you can find here: PDF link HMGS's tax exempt purpose, as stated in our charter, bylaws and yearly IRS form 990 (part 1, para. 1) is "to promote, aid and assist in the fostering and the education of historical gaming and military history." "While the non-history count listed at Hcon might have been 20%, at other cons it has been as high as 30%." Your data/reference and methodology sir ? Kevin Kelley |
Old Wolfman | 23 Jul 2015 7:02 a.m. PST |
Admiral,that is one impressive layout for that game pictured. |
capncarp | 23 Jul 2015 7:59 a.m. PST |
<listens closely> What is that sound, like someone stirring a big empty pot? |
mbsparta | 23 Jul 2015 9:24 a.m. PST |
I have to agree that HMGS should probably drop the "H". We have lost our way. But the membership seems to support the variety of games we have now and so that is what we have at our conventions. As for what is historical and what is not … That is hard to define. When defining obscenity, Supreme Court Justice Stewart said while he could not define it, he knew when he saw it. A fitting description for historical gaming. :) Mike B |
JohnnyPainter | 23 Jul 2015 11:08 a.m. PST |
As a gamer I love playing both historical and non historical and love mixing it up. Some nights I just want to play something goofy and light hearted. Others, I love recreating a historical battle and see if we can get similar outcomes (Look Sarge No Charts has been pretty good about this). I came to the hobby because of non-historical games – mostly sci-fi miniatures – and on a whim tried other era. I was never interested in the ACW, for example and after a few games really got into the history of it. Same with Napoleonics. The key here were friendly game masters who were willing to be patient and explain the era and the games. I find that a cohort of sour-faced geezers looking down their nose at neophytes makes games and periods inaccessible – and does more damage than good to the cause of promoting the historical aspect of the hobby. I've known teachers who have done the "bait and switch" to get kids interested in history – lets play a game with gnomes! Surprise, this was a legitimate WW1 battle – lets replace the gnomes with actual infantry. Not so boring, huh? This is what we need more of. I'm not one for forcing my gaming preferences on others, and I'm resentful of others who spend their time proselytising – which has the effect of turning people off to the hobby. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of space right now for games – so let people run what they want, and people play what they want. If they don't want to play in your historical game – maybe ask yourself why. If it comes to a point where space is an issue – then perhaps put in a quota system where historicals take priority. If one genre of gaming offends you to the point of extreme distress – perhaps they need to find another venue to play where they'd be more comfortable. This "debate" has been going on for so long now – and it's always the same small knot of the VERY vocal minority who seem to appoint themselves to speak for everyone else – perhaps just to hear themselves speak? Can we stop already and just play games, maybe have a beer afterwards? -Johnny |
Winston Smith | 23 Jul 2015 11:20 a.m. PST |
I can (and have) run an FIW game with straight GASLIGHT rules, no weird stuff, and all is guns and roses. Everybody's happy. But add ONE yeti and the Historical Police want to throw me off the convention floor! |
JohnnyPainter | 23 Jul 2015 11:31 a.m. PST |
Winston – that sounds like the punchline to a joke… "Do they call me Winston the FIW guy? No! But you add ONE yeti….." |