" should "older" wargamers encourage "younger" players ?" Topic

…..or leave them alone? (title too long!)

Since there seems to be wargamers who think that this is somehow important, I am wondering from both older and the younger gamers, if they find that this why they wargame/ was extremely helpful / a bit redundant / felt inappropriate / was bloody condescending ?

I know wargamers from 15 to 70+….I think of them all the same. I played much more complicated games when I was under 25 than I do now and I really don't think the 'me now' would be able to suggest or 'help' the 'me then' very much.

Do others feel different?

Definitely not, older gamers should try to persuade younger gamers to take up a different hobby all together. That might cut down on all of the non-gaming claptrap on these august Interweb communication pages. Oh, and get off my lawn!

I think it depends on what you mean by encourage and what you mean by wargamers. A 15yo during a game probably doesn't want some old fart telling him what to do, although a gentle suggestion when a boneheaded move is about to be made might be ok. I welcome those, and I'm a bit older than 15.

On the other hand, while being conscious I don't want to be creepy per Ditto, if I know some kid reasonably well, i.e. a friend's kid, and I hear him/her talking about an interest in history or fantasy or science-fiction or even video games, I wouldn't be afraid to say "well you know, there's this hobby, let me know if you want more info…"

Tim wrote

"Sounds creepy"

yep, it does….and why I am uncomfortable when I see posts suggesting it. To be honest, I don't distinguish age as relevant and treat everyone like they are adult enough to know what they want, need and they know how to get it.

Obviously, that doesn't mean I then agree with eveything they do…some people even use 1/72nd scale stuff….whats that about? 8)

If by encourage you mean invite them to join in and treat them with respect while they are playing, then yes, older gamers should do this (as my buddies and I did at Historicon last weekend). Nothing will drive kids away from gaming more than old farts being, well, old farts. 8)=

While I don't actively recruit non gaming minors that I don't know, I don't turn away kids from games as long as they're old enough not to annoy me too much (Usually about 12-13+). I'm not a babysitter though, the kids needs to be able to understand the rules and conduct himself properly for the game. If a younger kid will be accompanied by an adult for the game then that's ok.

When my kids were younger and came to conventions with me I would make sure I was with them for anything that wasn't specifically labeled as a children's game. If I though that their attention span wasn't going to be enough I simply wouldn't let them play and we'd do something else. As they got into their early teens and I was confident that they were able to be on their own for a game I would check in on them occasionally when I had a chance. Now that they're in their late teens I let them do what they want (which more often is simply not to come) and they know that if they need help they can come get me.

That being said, there was a situation where a 50 year old man was literally yelling at my then 8 year old son and I had to step in and let him know that I wasn't going to let that happen. But that is an extreme example from a man who is known to have temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way, probably my fault for letting my son play against him.

Of course we need to be welcoming to everyone who shows an interest in our strange little hobby.

We should also remember that teenagers are a lot more sensitive to criticism than we old grumblers.

At the very least, we should avoid telling youngsters to get off my damn lawn.

I still recall a "helper" being condescending toward my (at the time young teenage) daughter who was trying to play a game at a con. He picked up one of her figures from the board (which would get him shot in some circles!) and asked in a sugary voice, "Do you know what this kind of hat is called?"

To which she replied, "Ja, das is ein pickelhaube."

Nazrat wrote

"If by encourage you mean invite them to join in and treat them with respect while they are playing then yes, older gamers should do this"

but did you conciously want younger gamers to join in as opposed to just anyone at all?

And again, even the guy you knew could be a problem and couldnt be described as being 'younger', you didn't exclude them and treated them also with respect (…until he crossed a line!) because you aren't consciously doing any age direction nor even behaviour filtering for that matter either.

Would I be wrong to suggest that you are not really encouraging young or old, just wargamers?.

You should encourage anyone who is a decent person and interested in gaming.

Contrary to what is too often promoted in contemporary pop culture, age does matter. In general men over thirty don't have much in common with people under 18 -- nor should they. War gaming is as much about getting together with your friends as it is playing with toy soldiers. And let's face it, when the conversation turns to modern politics, or paying a mortgage, or the latest story about your wife and kids, or dealing with diabetes or some new pain in your joints then a younger person is not going to be interested (nor should they be). Similarly, they are not going to get many references to a World War II propaganda movie or a line from a Dirty Harry movie -- both of which they will only find offensive (and probably rightfully so). On the other hand, my gaming group is made up of a lot of people in their early twenties and others in their late forties and fifties, so the younger players do learn a lot about life just by interacting with us -- kind of like Jane Goodall observing the chimps. Whether the younger players gaming skills get better, I cannot tell, but they do learn a lot about important life skills like how to maintain a marriage, how to raise kids, how to keep job, how to plan ahead for dealing with bad health and the like. So in summary should older gamers encourage (interact) with younger gamers? If we are talking about gamers in their early twenties (or at least above 18) then I would say that the answer is yes. But older people don't have any business gaming with people younger than that -- unless you or your buddies have to watch the kids that day and you have to bring them along with you. In that case, go along and include the kid -- but remember to modify your language and conduct appropriately.

Kevin

"You should encourage anyone who is a decent person and interested in gaming."

I'm with Weasel.

(Actually, I think that sentiment runs through most of the posts in this thread…)

"If you're going to be on my lawn, could you mow it for me?"

Not many of us once thought of joining the church… Oops

Assuming to said " to play historical wargames properly" then the answer is of course yes.
Many of the dads here can give their experience, for sure.

I have a group that games at my house. One is 12. The next youngest is 48. The 12 year old is still rather clueless on the rules, but greatly enjoys moving the figures and rolling the dice. We help him with the rules and he has no problem with that.

Everyone gets along fine with him. His behavior is impeccable. He rarely misses a game.

I joke with his mother about the age of his playmates.

Tom

Tom

One of the stories that always stood out to me was a guy who gamed in Gary Gygax' original group as a teenager.

He remarked that Gary treated him exactly like any other player: Expected him to act responsibly but also took him at face value instead of talking down to him.

Of course! When all you old farts die off, I need someone to play with. Only way to make sure is to recruit from groups that will out-live me!

It's your evolutionary duty for the old to encourage the young. War games is only a tiny part of that.

It's your evolutionary duty for the old to encourage the young.

Smoke cigarettes! Procrastinate! Speak before thinking! Focus only on immediate return! Jaywalk! Have lots of parties that consume scarse resources! Drive everywhere, don't walk! Eat fatty foods all the time!

… am I doing it right?

;)

Phooey!

Put on a good game. Be a good player. That encourages everyone.

Ran games for years at H'con and CW for kids 8-13,
adults NOT allowed (except as onlookers.)

Kids only had to bring themselves. Found them to be
great players all those years. Not been able to be to
any HMGSInc con's for 10 years (wife's health) but a
member of our group has picked up the torch (and the old
figures I used to use) and presented a game at H'con
this year. He plans to continue.

The HAWKS do a WONDERFUL job at encouraging youngsters
in the hobby. Hats off to them !

I notice another couple games in the PEL/in con AAR's
for kids. Great ! The more the better !

right. …seems that helping adults is just plain friendly

so I suppose now I should ask if 'younger' players should encourage the "elder statesmen" to join them.

but why do we never hear anyone suggesting or encouraging younger people to allow older guys join in?

Good god why are you so argumentative about EVERYTHING? Is this fun for you like Derek baiting FoW people was fun for him?

who am I argueing with?

"why do we never hear anyone suggesting or encouraging younger people to allow older guys join in?"

Probably because I've never seen a 12yo hosting a game at a con or running an open club looking for members… And as far as I know, there aren't any 12yo TMPers to have that discussion.

I played in a RCW game at a con there where I was the only adult player, the other 4 players were teenaged boys waiting for the WH or WH40K gaming to start the next day (the GMs were adults), and the teenagers were very nice to me. So maybe the kids already have that message.

I tend to amble a lot, skip to the bottom for an irreverent TL;DR, if that's how you roll.

Well, I'll weigh in here, as a 17 year old. Not quite 12 but not full on adult yet. Personally, I wouldn't want some middle aged dude pushing the hobby like a salesman if I weren't interested. That being said, it seems like this is more focused on younguns' who are already somewhat drawn to wargaming, at which point, encouragement would be awesome. When I was getting started, it would have been great to have had a real person who knows the ropes explaining the concept of errata, scales, modeling, and all that good stuff instead of having to figure it all out with a little help from the internet and a lot of trial and error.

That being said, it seems to me that more experienced wargamers are more given to tell folks, or imply to them that they're having "wrongbadfun". I mean, my group (4-5 guys, one girl, all incoming HS senoirs) has been enjoying Weasel's "Clash on the Fringe" and some good ol' Coreheim lately, and I can feel a 6mm Rorke's Drift at 2:1 calling my name. I'm psyched to grab a Mountain Dew and some buddies for Age of Sigmar. These are all relatively little projects, and most of them are fantasy, telling stories of our own. On a Summer job, they're doable while still helping out with the groceries, keeping up with an LCG, and picking up the occaisional comic, CD, or RPG book. Since 2011, I've probably spent $300 USD on wargames, supplies and all, AoS being my first big box. Sometimes, the older, historic crowd makes it feel like these little, whimsical games are less valid to them than a refight of some minor action in the Civil War, or a battle between Normans and Saxons. It's what my group has found fun and affordable, and being looked down on for playing the wrong ruleset, or using some GW stuff is sorta off putting.

So yes, encourage away. Please do. No wargamer lives on an island, it's a social hobby. And I would LOVE to hear about your brilliant little FIW game with the quaint indie rules, maybe even try it out. Let's swap painting tips, even chat a little about the Republican primary, or talk shop or Aristotle while we're drybrushing. But please don't cringe when we drift to my Zeon themed Tau Killteam for a little. Guess what I'm trying to say is, sharing a hobby is really cool, for anyone, it's a passion, and one pours their time into it. As a young gamer, I want someone who was tossing dice with Featherstone around, someone with a love for strategy, and for history, and for games. At the same time, that same guy can seem a bit unapproachable seeming. So yes, encourage budding wargamers, but walk gently with criticisms of our preferences, we can be pretty sensitive about that, and maybe that's kinda on us to grow up, but it'd go a long way if there were less of a stigma to the "popular", less historic, less hardcore games.

Tl;DR: Hey guys, impatient, anime watching, history lovin', EXPLOSIONS NAOW!, wargaming teenager. Hell yeah, share the hobby with us if we're interested. Just remember, respect gets respect, so don't go running down our Sci-Fi warbands and GW rules and we won't cuss your Napoleonics. Heck, let's try each other's cool games out, because we play toy soldiers different ways, and maybe they're both fun.