"Help me with WOTR livery" Topic

Hi all,I am currently working on a 1460 Lancastrian army and I am struggling somewhat with the retinue's of my three Lord's. First of all we have Henry lord Clifford of Skipton my research so far shows his coat of arms as being a blue and yellow check with broad red band across it, but his retinue seem to wear a white surcoat with a red wyvern rampant on. It's the same problem with the Percy family, their standard appears to be a red and yellow quartered with a blue lion rampant on the yellow and three white fish on the red, however the surcoat of their retainers would seem to be purple and black halfs with a white moon on. Can anyone please tell me the correct livery from these two families, I can't progress with my painting without it. Thanks for any help, Dave.

Some info here:

link

link

Hope this helps

Remember, coat of arms and livery are two entirely different beasts. It was not unusual for liveries to be very different from the noble's coat of arms.

I don't have my source material to hand but my recollection of Percy's livery is Black and red. Will double check when I get home. The Lance and Longbow Society have an excellent series on banners and liveries etc. for the WotR. Our frequent poster from Vexillia usually stocks them at very reasonable prices for all the info they contain.

This should help with the Percys.

link

Thanks very much for some helpful info lads. Alcibiades you said what I was starting to suspect but did not really want to hear, that coat of arms and livery are two entirely different things. I can now carry on and paint my Percys in their correc, but boring black and red, but at least I won't have to paint four lions rampant and twelve white fish on 32 15mm minis. Thanks again for the help lads, Dave.

I think that the black & red look really good together.

The livery colors come from the long swallow tail banners that nobles used. In Percy's case it was divided into two sections red and black with the badges he had chosen to represent himself marked on the two fields. There were also square shaped badge banners that displayed the livery colors and a single badge. Livery and badges used by the retinue men had nothing to do with the heraldry of the noble's heraldic banner. Neither did the lord wear livery and badges since it was a mark of a man belonging to him, he wouldn't wear sometihing meant for the common fighting man.

Almost forgot, I agree with Coopman, red and black make a great combination.

These are some of my Percies…

I like the Red and Black too!

Were the colors of the trousers/leggings related to the livery colors at all, or not? I am not clear about this. Thanks.

all I have compiled so far

Edward Neville, Lord Abergavenny [d.1476] – green and white
William Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel [d.1487] – red and white
John Touchet, Lord Audley [d.1490] – yellow and red
John, Viscount Beaumont [d.1460] – white
William, 7th Lord Berkeley [active until at least 1483] – red
John Bouchier, Lord Berners [d.1474] – yellow and green
Humphrey Stafford, Duke of Buckingham [d.1460] – black and red
(also Henry Stafford d. of Buckingham, d.1483).
Sir Thomas Burgh/Borough of Gainsborough [d.1496] – blue
George, Duke of Clarence [d.1478] – murrey and blue
Thomas, Lord Clifford [d.1455] – white
Brooke, Lord Cobham [Edward d. 1464, John d. 1515] – black and red
Sir Marmaduke Constable [d. 1518] – red
Sir John Conyers [d.1490?] – white
Sir Richard Croft [d.1509] – white and blue
Randolf/Ranulph Lord Dacre of Gilsland [d.1461] – four stripes barry yellow and blue
Sir Richard Fiennes, Lord Dacre of the South [d.1483] – white
Thomas Courtney, Earl of Devon [1st, d.1458, 2nd d.1461] – red
Digby family – blue
Thomas Grey, Marquis of Dorset [d.1501] – white and dark red [murrey]
(also known as 3rd Lord Grey, 8th Lord Ferrers, Earl of Huntingdon in 1471, Marquis of Dorset in 1475)
Edward, Earl of March/Edward IV [d.1483] – murrey and blue
Edward, Prince of Wales [d.1471] – red and black
Henry Bouchier, Earl of Essex [1st d.1483, 2nd d.1529] – black and green
Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter [d.1475] – white and red
William Neville, Lord Fauconberg, Earl of Kent [d.1463] – white and blue
Walter Devereaux, 7th Baron Ferrers [d.1485] – white and red
Sir Edward Grey, 2nd Lord Grey, 7th Lord Ferrers of Groby [d.1461] – green
Sir John Radcliffe, Lord Fitzwalter [d.1461] – blue
William Bourchier, Lord Fitzwaurin or Fitz-Warine [still active 1469] – white and red [?]
Henry Lord Grey of Codnor [d.1496] – red and green
Edmund, Lord Grey of Ruthin and Earl of Kent in 1465 [d.1490] – red
Sir James Harrington [d.after 1497] – black [?]
William, Lord Hastings [d.1483] – dark red [or purple] and blue
Henry VI [d.1471] – white and blue
Henry VII – white and green
William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke [d.1469] – blue and red
John Howard, Duke of Norfolk [d.1485] – red
Thomas Howard [d.1524] – red and white
Thomas Talbot, Viscount Lisle or L'Isle [d.1470] – blue
Robert, 3rd Lord Hungerford and Lord Molynes [d.1464] – red and green
Francis, Viscount Lovell [died after 1487?] – blue and yellow
Thomas Fitzalan, Lord Maltravers, 12th Earl of Arundel in 1487 [d.1524] – black
John Neville, Lord Montague, earl of Northumberland 1464-1470 [d.1471] – red and black
Walter Blount, Lord Mountjoy – blue
John Neville 2nd Earl of Westmoreland [d.1461] – black and red
John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk [Ist d.1461, 2nd d.1476] – blue and red
Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland [2nd earl d.1455, 3rd earl d.1461, 4th earl d.1489] – red and black
John De Vere, Earl of Oxford [Ist d. 1462, 2nd d. 1512] – orange or orange tawney
John Paston [d.1479] – red
Jasper Tudor, Earl of Pembroke [d.1495] – white and green
Edward Poynings [active in 1485] – red
Richard of Gloucester/Richard III [d.1485] – murrey and blue
Anthony Woodville, Earl Rivers and Lord Scales [d.1483] – green [but noted as blue and tawney at a tournament of 1478]
Richard Woodville, Earl Rivers [d.1491] – green
Thomas, Lord Roos [d.1464] – blue and yellow
Edmund, Earl of Rutland [d.1460] – murrey and blue
Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury, 2nd Earl of Westmoreland, [d.1460] – red and black
John, Lord Scrope of Bolton [d. 1498] – white
John Talbot, 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury [1st d. 1460, 2nd d. 1473] – red and black
Henry Beaufort, Duke of Somerset [d.1464] – white and blue
Thomas, Lord Stanley later Earl of Derby [d.1504] – orange tawney and green
William Stanley [d.1495] – red
John De La Pole, Duke of Suffolk [d.1491] – blue and yellow
Humphrey Talbot [active until at least 1483] – black and white
Rhys Ap Thomas 'The Raven' [active until at least 1485] – white
Richard Tunstall [d.1491] – black and white [?]
Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick [d.1471] – red
Lionel, 6th Lord Welles [d.1461] – black and red?
John, Lord Wenlock [d.1471] – white
Henry Willoughby – blue
Robert, Lord Willoughby [d.1501] – red and white
Richard, Duke of York [d.1460]- blue and white
John, Lord Zouche [d.1526] – black and murrey

Town contingents and militias:
1455 Coventry – green and red
1461 Rye – red

get the Freezy Water publications, they are invaluable!

cheers
Matt

I note that the brothers Edward (Earl of March and Edward IV), Edmund (Earl of Rutland), George (Duke of Clarence) and Richard (Richard of Gloucester and Richard III) all used murrey and blue; so clearly the family livery.

Didn't have time to see if there were any other family combinations in the list.

Thanks again for all the replies, it's very good of you all. Blue willow that is one heck of a list and will be very useful to me, but could you please advise, were the colours halfs or quarters. I already have all the freezy water books, the problem that I was making for myself was as Alcibiades pointed out, I was taking Livery and coats of arms to be inter connected. Thanks again to all, Dave.

Were the colors of the trousers/leggings related to the livery colors at all, or not? I am not clear about this. Thanks

I think all the pictures I have seen indicate the hose was not related to the livery colours. There may have been exceptions though? (Some Swiss certainly used parti-coloured hose in their Cantonal colours, for example)

The livery coats could be quartered, meaning the colours would be identical looking from front and rear. I personally think this was moderately rare, but I doubt anyone has a list of which retinues used which system.

Possibly you would find out Dave, if you searched each individual lords surviving records and letters, fine rolls, seneshal and magistrates reports.

I mostly concentrate on the barons wars and have only kept this list as a side interest, when I have come across information whilst wading my way through research.

Cheers
Matt

Thank you very much bluewillow! I have just started my WotR project and your list will definitely help.

Regards,
Nina