"Renaissance Venetians" Topic

I am interested in doing a 28mm Venetian army for the Italian Wars but am having a hard time finding decent info, and much of it is conflicting.

It seems that generally I should decide on either pre 1510ish or post, correct? What are the major differences? Also, what would we be looking at if we went later than the Wars, say around the 1560s?

I assume TAG, Eureka, early Foundry and Perry are good miniatures to look at?

Any thoughts on books? I have read a lot of general histories, but nothing on the military in particular.

Any help at all would be appreciated, even just pointing me in the right direction.

I'd go for a c.1509 (Agnadello) army. As a rough breakdown, as far as I can gather, the army at Agnadello comprised:

1700 Men-at-arms (though I'm not sure if this is men or 4 man 'Lances' – I'd go for 'Lances' counting each as two heavy and one lighter mounted crossbow man).

3000 Stradiots (always useful and good for a laugh).

15,000 Italian foot. I'd go for a mix of pike and arquebus with slightly more pike than shot. Some list the shot as crossbow, but I doubt they were that common with the Venetians by 1509 – you could have a few units though.

3000 Romandiole pike. Basically Italians (in probabilty) that were trained to the level of Landsknechts – they wore red slashed white, so probably looked a bit like them too. I think they were originally raised by the Vitelli brothers for Cesare Borgia.

2000 Mercenary Italian Militia. I guess these were a mix of swordsmen, spearmen, billmen, crossbowmen and such like.

Later armies (mid – late 16C) would have have pistol armed heavy cavalry, marines (schiavonni), and muskets would start to replace arquebus. There would be no crossbows. They are two very different looking armies.

Information on this period is not as easily available, or as comprehensive as you might think. This is my book list, though none of it is wholly about the Venetians.

link

There are a couple of books about the army of the Venetian state including this one by Mallet and Hale – it is not a cheap book.

link

The Mallet and Hale book is still the best by far. It does not tell you anything about uniforms or dress though.

There is more information available in Italian of course. I have a book, but not the time to translate it.

Figures wise, I use Old Glory Italian and Spanish pikemen for…………….. well pikemen.
I also think the Old Glory gensdarmes, both Italian and other, are a good source of Men-at-arms.
My Stradiot are primarily Old Glory as well (ugly as sin in the flesh but paint up great). I also use the Perry western Stradiot in my French army.

I tend to blend my Italian Wars Venetians with my later 15th century Italians, which are primarily Mirliton. I use both the Mirliton Condottiere range, and the fantasy human range (which used to be Grenadier).

There are plenty of figures out there, you just need to get the "vision" in your head and decide which ones you are going to use.
I must confess, my "vision" is not that stable. But I am ok with that.

If you want to get a better understanding of dress in the period, try this – Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance – by J R Hale. If you refer to the art works painted at the time of the period you are focussing on, it should help a lot.

Good luck.

Phil

A third vote for the Mallet and Hale book for in depth detail on the Venetian Army in this era.

In terms of figures I would recommend TAG for the Italian infantry, they do pike, crossbow, arquebus and even the archers with composite bows.

I am doubtful the "mazzocchios", the stuffed rolls of cloth around the barbutes, were really still worn in the 1500s but they certainly give a very Italian feel to the infantry so some Perry Italian figures or plastic figures with the Italian metal heads may look good. The Tudor Heads can also be used to bring the figures more into the 1500s and will actually be more accurate for the 1500s Italians from what I have seen. The Perrys also do a great set of Balkan archers.

The Perry Stradiots, in western and eastern dress, are really nice and the TAG Elmeti are great cavalry miniatures.

One essential I would argue are Petes awesome Venetian flags, he does a set specifically for Agnadello:

As Phillius said there are loads of figures out there, it's a case of mixing and matching – and it is a fantastic period to collect and paint up. If you want to see some of my efforts have a look:
link

Malatesta1500, good points and info. I enjoyed the photos of your Italians, too. Thanks.

I am doubtful the "mazzocchios", the stuffed rolls of cloth around the barbutes, were really still worn in the 1500s but they certainly give a very Italian feel to the infantry so some Perry Italian figures or plastic figures with the Italian metal heads may look good.

For those interested in those cloth doughnuts, it is probably worth mentioning that also the recent Perry plastic set Light Cavalry (1450-1500) comes with separate mazzocchios that can be glued to some of the helmets included. There are six mazzocchios per set.

But the mazzachios do give a more Italian feel. I added milliput ones to these WoR Front Rank figures (used for Italian Wars) for just that effect. Poetic licence, but an effective one, I think.

Thanks Condotta

James I agree, the mazzochios really help to give the Italian feel, I have included figures with them in my collection as well.

Thank you all. I really appreciate this. I think I am going to take my time looking at these resources. This has focused my efforts, I think, which is what I needed. Thank you!