"Will heads roll at GW?" Topic

I am of course referring to the Age if Sigmar Thingie.
Admittedly, this is based on the almost universal panning of AoS on TMP. TMP is hardly a bastion of GW fandom, to put it mildly.
However I also saw the box set, and the minis are hideous.
But I was never the target audience.

So, to indulge in typical TMP schadenfreude, if this is as disastrous as it looks, what will happen?
It looks like a lot of tooling and development went into the figures. Not so much into the rules. If it's a disaster, that cannot be recovered.
Let's they haven't smashed any molds of the old stuff yet.

Hmm. I've seen as many threads saying they liked the rules and had fun as those panning them, and I doubt that the vast majority of people who have spoken out against them have actually played them, if they have even bothered to read them at all.

GW inspires negativity, ESPECIALLY on TMP.

The new FLGS down the street sold 75 out of 80 AoS boxes in two days.

That doesn't seem too disastrous…

I've had a couple of games with the rules. They play OK so far nothing special nor any grating faults.. It would, I think, be practical if things go wrong on them to call the AoS rules the skirmish rules and the old rules big battle rules.

The minis bother me more than the rules. I think them ugly and seem designed as display pieces rather than gaming pieces.

I think GW are resilient enough to overcome a setback from this.

x42

I've seen far more 'pro' Age of Sigmar posts than I expected on various forums.

I predict that once ISIL see how they have made their extensive old armies obsolete, they will start a rival company with similar minis, subsidized by their oil profits, so they can afford to sell minis for around $0.50 USD each, thus putting GW out of business by 2017. With the backing of the Trilateral Commission and with the implicit support of the Illuminati, the demise of GW is assured.

Well I have to say that seeing the prices of the AOS minis so far, GW may have bitten off too much this time.

The fact that the simple AOS rules are free as well as the warscrolls being free, I can see many, many 8th edition players saying to heck with buying a whole new round of stuff, let's just play with the armies we have, or let's just play 8th edition or an older edition.

There is no question that this will totally fragment the Warhammer community on the competitive level.

Gamers like me won't be directly affected since I play Warhammer only with a small group of long-time friends, we play older editions any way.

I just had to gasp at what they are charging for the first boxed sets of AOS miniatures. The starter set is decent enough way to play the new game, but beyond that I just don't see this selling well enough to justify its pricing overall.

I think there are too many that assume because they don't like the game/figures, that no one else does, either. From what I've seen this might be a popular game and the lower model counts may offset the traditionally higher per figure costs GW is known for, allowing for greater accessibility by cheaper buy in to the game. Looks like they are trying to fix one of the biggest gripes made by gamers about GW gaming.
Also keep in mind that GW is likely going after a new market, young teens with parents with excessive disposable income. I don't think they care much about the older fantasy community as they were not making them any money!

Since there do not seem to be individuals stepping up to take design/development credit it would appear that whoever they may be, aren't very proud of their creation. Mantic, seemingly proud of their product, believes Fantasy mass combat is not dead and by involving a community to produce acceptable rules, support tournament or free play, produce affordable figures there is a profitable niche to be made. If GW believes their Fantasy market share was flagging they should put on their "big boy design pants" and do something serious about it, make it open source or walk away…not make a parody out of their customers.

As painful as it may be, sizable non-historical/non-RPG figure manufacturers have to compliment their products with a supported rules systems acceptable to their customers. Otherwise their products loose market share and become proxies for other systems.

What leadership at GW may not get is that there is more accountability to the public than ever before. The iron curtain failed a long time ago. We now live in an internet world where social media can kill a company over night or make them millions.

As with the French Revolution lopping off anonymous heads will not be very satisfying to the angry masses. If, as the community seems to believe, there is a clueless group of "Marie Antoinettes" at GW who believe "…their investment is meaningless to us…let them eat crappy rules" they will face the consequences… whatever that may be.

People complain about the prices (and rightly so).

Others say that the market has borne it, whether you like it or not, so who cares.

But seeing the prices on the AoS releases, I have to wonder if the market will continue to bear it. ESPECIALLY the next time they raise prices, and how far off can THAT be? The bubble will eventually burst.

GW is already fighting for a market of increasingly shortening attention spans. And I'm NOT talking about JUST kids.

The Warhammer reboot provides a prime opportunity for fantasy wargamers, and potential fantasy wargamers, to blink in the warm sunshine of other fantasy wargame possibilities (or historical, but that is neither here nor there). The same may be said for retailers.

This is not schadenfreude, I think it just makes sense. And I don't know where failure would leave GW. Hopefully with the ability and wherewithal to re-reboot WFB into a reasonable business model.

The Big Press AoS has gotten (and isn't infamy a form of PR now, too?) will carry this some distance, but with upcoming releases yet unseen, and only vaguely hinted at (BAD BUSINESS), It could sputter out over a relatively short period. My moneys definately not on it.

And more than heads will roll.

TMP hardly sets the standards of the wargaming community. The TMP has a strong bias against GW, it doesn't matter what GW releases.

Round heads will roll nicely. However if they have spikey bits, as they may well do, then no. Or at least not very far.

Bob

What leadership at GW may not get is that there is more accountability to the public than ever before. The iron curtain failed a long time ago. We now live in an internet world where social media can kill a company over night or make them millions.

Excellent point!

Heard it was flying off the shelves apparently.

Not sure TMP is the place to judge the popularity of a new GW game.

Not interested in AOS – but called in at our small GW shop for a pot of paint and asked about the new game – the Manager pointed at the almost empty shelves and said that they had almost sold out ! ?? – some people must like this new game !

"However I also saw the box set, and the minis are hideous".

"It looks like a lot of tooling and development went into the figures"

Non-sequitur…….

"So, to indulge in typical TMP schadenfreude, if this is as disastrous as it looks, what will happen?".

"Not so much into the rules. If it's a disaster, that cannot be recovered".

Non-sense, they're GW.

I suspect their "Finecast" range of products shall propel them forward, as a company, to greater revenue heights, on an annual basis.

The latter appears to be so successful and in demand, that they can't even keep up with production, and the "Finecast" products have been temporarily "delisted" by the company, while they work diligently to produce more inventory……

Ha ha! Extra Crispy you shootin from the hip my man :D
80 boxes x 1000 stores = 80000 x $125 USD = a cool $10 USD million is that enough? So maybe they will do well. But that not the point, these minions of evil destroyed the Warhammer Fantasy world, this is akin to destroying our world in a all out nuclear attack, yes we have long memories you dark minions of antijoy and we shall have our revenge ;)
Cheers all and yes TMP is a harsher informant than most for GW and the fanboi clubs

A friend of mine's son, 12 years old and a big Vampire Counts player, was practically frothing at the mouth when I gave him the copy of last week's White Dwarf that I was otherwise going to bin. He doesn't care about 30 years of Old World lore, he doesn't give a tuppeny damn about OOP Citadel lead and whether Orcs are now Orruks doesn't phase him. There was a bigass picture of Nagash and a whole new bunch of rules and background to become expert on. He is GW's target audience and he was hooked immediately because he's 12 and naive and will buy and enthuse about a poo if it came in a GW box.

Age of Sigmar will make GW a huge pile of gold.

I think you will get a better sense of the direction of GW and AoS on a forum such as Warseer, which is dedicated specifically to GW products.

Their base is definitely divided. Some of the most dedicated players of many years and with multiple armies feel they were deliberately discarded. I think they make good points. By the same token, WHFB was languishing, and this was a radical step to reboot a fantasy game which was indisputably their own, and of course to churn sales. The die has been cast. Let no one say GW was indecisive.

As for TMP being 'harsh' on GW, I again invite you to look at some of the threads on Warseer. The vitriol there is simply not allowed here, and Warseer is a dedicated FAN site!

As for the new minis, GW has pushed extremes for decades now. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, and tastes vary. I don't enjoy most of their recent efforts, but many of their sculpts are my favorites in the genre.

I think Maggot is correct. They are specifically targeting juveniles as a market and do not care about the older and more critical gamers of yesteryear. They will lose numbers of previous fans. The numbers aren't in to see if they will prosper with this new approach. I am skeptical. This is their honeymoon with the new product. We will see.

I don't think heads will roll. I do think they will continue to decline.

I have left GW far behind in my life… I still have some stuff kicking around, but I doubt I will ever play any of their games again. I bear them no ill will (not anymore, but I used to hate them. Life is too short for hate.) I hope that Age Of Sigmar does specacularly well and re-invigorates the fantasy skirmish wargaming scene.

I run a FLGS, and was initially hesitant to carry AoS because of the negative attitude all over the internet about the rules. After reading the rules and viewing images of the models, and after a meeting with my managers, we decided to fully support the release of the game, and in a big way. After receiving our preview copy from GW along with the goodies (terrain piece, battle board, backdrop, posters, etc), we started hyping the game locally, assembled and painted the minis, and took a large number of preorders. The midnight release at our store was very well attended by excited gamers, some of who initially panned the game, and more copies were sold. Folks enjoyed the demos and make and take we ran, and were generally convinced to give the game the benefit of the doubt.

I've played Warhammer Fantasy 6th edition and 40k 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions before I moved on to better games such as Ambush Alley, Hail Caesar, and the Battlegroup family, and have played ASL and GMT's A World at War. I consider myself pretty well informed gaming-wise and headed towards jaded grognard status.

All this being said, I find AoS to be a breath of fresh air. It reminds me of the Realm of Chaos warbands or Rogue Trader lists, which were not even remotely balanced. They were created specifically so friends could sit down and have a few hours of fun, and build a story together. THAT is what AoS is. It's specifically not for power gamers who feel compelled to tweak an army list for hours to pulverize their opponents.

The miniatures are well-wrought and look great. Sure, if you're used to playing AWI with nothing but Perry miniatures, AoS minis will appear both bulky and cartoonish. But guess what? You're not the target audience. I personally purchased two sets, and traded my Chaos dudes for more good guys. Why? Because the game is FUN and the miniatures are COOL. What will I do with my Lizardman, Empire and Dogs of War army from Warhammer? Well gosh, I'll play Kings of War 2nd edition, because that game is outstanding. And I'll sell the rulebook in the store, because I believe in that game too. But KoW and AoS will not compete with each other, because they both fill different niches.

Finally, believe it or not, GW doesn't give a rat's ace about what some cranky posters on TMP have to say. Money talks, and AoS is selling like hotcakes. The game, while containing some odd choices in the rules, is still very fun and very playable. It will be a success, and it will make GW and our store giant fistfuls of money. And ultimately, that's what counts.

"Finally, believe it or not, GW doesn't give a rat's ace about what some cranky posters on TMP have to say."

That seems to be a fashionable corporate attitude in gaming these days. It is manifest at Activision/Blizzard as well, where they lost 3,000,000 Warcraft subscribers in the first quarter of the year. They too proclaim their success. I think deliberately alienating large chunks of one's customer base has more to do with hubris than brilliance. Time will tell.

I wasn't aware that guys who argue about the facing colors of uniforms during The War of Jenkin's Ear were Games Workshop's customer base. If that is the case then I stand corrected.

"I think deliberately alienating large chunks of one's customer base has more to do with hubris than brilliance."

Except the vast majority of complainers here admittedly gave up the game long ago (or never played) yet still want to complain vociferously about the new rules. Big difference there. I'm pretty sure NONE of them would be swayed even if GW bent over backwards for them and their "potential" business.

"The miniatures are well-wrought and look great".

"Sure, …….AoS minis will appear both bulky and cartoonish".

Wow, two non sequiturs in slightly over four hours. That is impressive.

I am both a long term historical wargamer and an occasional GW Fantasy player for the past 25+ odd years. I'm also the the father of an 11 year old boy.

Gaming historicals with me has been a very occasional thing he does to humour the old man. But AoS has already got him off his computer and iPad and playing miniatures games with his dad. Anything that does that is great in my book.

Gradually I may even be able to steer a young growing mind, already interested in history, into trying historical miniatures more often, time will tell.

AoS and GW prices are truly absurd but thats nothing new from GW. We play with what we have and patrol ebay for great deals from kids losing interest and dumping stuff.

I do think the Product Manager for AoS has bungled the release schedule rather badly in not having his main rule book available at release along with the box set but I cant see AoS not doing better for them in dollar terms than WFB has been doing over the past few years.

Its all good.

So – and I hate to sound behind the times – but is Warhammer (as we knew it) dead ?

If so that deserves a big WOW!

And the old minis – they'll be without value now ?

Get me to ebay….

"Except the vast majority of complainers here admittedly gave up the game long ago (or never played) yet still want to complain vociferously about the new rules."

Except that I am referring to the Warseer forum and what I have seen in my local shop. The Warseer forum is international and exclusively GW focused, and there is FAR more hostility there than what this board will even tolerate.

I stand by my statements. Writing off a chunk of your regulars on the off chance of picking up juveniles with hundreds of dollars in whoopee money is quite a risk. At that point the target customers are going to be looking at gaming computer components instead. I am still putting my money on hubris, not brilliance.

"So – and I hate to sound behind the times – but is Warhammer (as we knew it) dead ?"

Yes it is. Canonically the world of WHFB has been destroyed and this is the rebirth. This summarizes "The End Times" link Here is a blog post that provides a broader summary: link

Age of Sigmar is Age of Sigmar 1. There is no WHFB 9th edition. WHFB and that world ended on 8th ed. That is not to say it couldn't be resurrected at some point.

"And the old minis – they'll be without value now ?

Get me to ebay…."

Waiting to see, 20th Maine. I have tons of O&G. Whether they go up or down in value is something I am watching. Except my Savage Orcs. THOSE aren't going anywhere!

So – and I hate to sound behind the times – but is Warhammer (as we knew it) dead ?

Oh yes GW has done it again but this time instead of killing off one of their smaller games they are killing off WFB.

If this they cut their overhead costs since they will no longer need to create WFB figures and will be instead selling for lots of money AoS figures.

Right now they are at $10 USD per figure and I expect that price to be even higher for later releases.

I wasn't aware that guys who argue about the facing colors of uniforms during The War of Jenkin's Ear were Games Workshop's customer base.

They aren't. They just feel the need to pontificate about matters that don't even concern them!

Why are people still whining about the prices of the mini's?

Starter box of 47 minis for 100 Euros, 2 unit boxes for 80 Euros and 2 Heroes at 60 Euros comes to 59 mini's for 4,07 Euros per mini.

"Why are people still whining about the prices of the mini's?"

Who is whining? Where?

We are snarkily comparing the prices to what historical players play and are snickering.

WFB was once new. Who knows where AoS will go?

Also, complainers are always louder than proponents. Judging AoS's chances by the rants on Warseer is not a very accurate method.

"The miniatures are well-wrought and look great".

"Sure, …….AoS minis will appear both bulky and cartoonish".

Wow, two non sequiturs in slightly over four hours. That is impressive.

And here we can see that Mako has discovered that it is much easier to make a quote look like it says what you want it to with a creatively inserted ellipsis.

@HUBCommish,
You've done everything right and are reaping the rewards. Everything else… really doesn't matter!

Early sales don't mean squat. Many games sold like hot cakes and then faded away. AOS will sell if only for the novelty factor and curiosity of people.

We won't know if AOS is successful until a year or more has passed, more armies have been released and people are making the inevitable transition from their old armies to AOS.

Only then will be know f AOS was successful or Warhammer Fantasy Battle 10th edition will be rolling along and we'll have to pretend it never happened.

New Coke ?
Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower?

Heads will not roll at GW…

…but dice will! Bwah ha ha

Badump bump. (I'll be here all week folks)

Went to meet the missus in town Saturday and passed the GW shop and it was heaving and buzzing about the age of sigmar thingie.
I love seeing all these people passing by and popping in to get a copy of that game. More gamers and opponents for me in the future, if the rules are crap then they will be playing deadzone and FOW with me sooner rather than later.

Judging by the shops activity I would say that the only rolling will be coins into those tills.

Unfortunately I ended up buying some rather tasty Kataphron Breachers. Dam those awesome miniatures..last time I check to see if GW are doin well.
For the record the box is pretty and the shop staff allowed me to examine the contents before possible purchase,but only really liked the chaos chaps as the other 'good' guys remind me of Mantics basilean blokes.

I agree with HUBCommish. People at the FLGS are buzzing and buying copies.

Warhammer Fantasy sucked anyway. The core rules were showing their 80's age – far better alternatives on the market. GW's own price increases meant it was prohibitive to play a GW mass battles game. For the last decade or longer most people complainted about GW never advancing the storylines for Warhammer or 40k – well, they did, Warhammer's storyline has advanced and now it's a whole new story, and a whole new game.

I read the rules online before the release and I don't like them. I will probably never play. But I got a copy anyways. And then I went to a midnight release party for it and during the Make and Take I got hands-on with the miniatures, assembling them, etc. Bought a second copy. Watched a lot of demos and the game plays fast and furious – I can see why so many people were buzzing about it – it's the ultimate casual miniatures game.

I'll still not play, as the rules are not to my liking, but the minis are probably the best engineered models I've ever had my hands on (though that will probably reverse when Kingdom Death comes out…)

Now I'm just going to use the models to make some Kings of War armies or something.

non sequiturs

LOL try looking that up in a dictionary, Mako11.

My only concern is the possible (inevitable?) phasing out of the old minis. Those Empire/Brettonia boxes have lots of useful plastic bits for converting 40K stuff.

I do think the Product Manager for AoS has bungled the release schedule rather badly in not having his main rule book available at release along with the box set but I cant see AoS not doing better for them in dollar terms than WFB has been doing over the past few years.

What main rule book? There is no rule book except for the 4 pager that they are giving away online. So, I would say that the product manager did just fine by not releasing a product that doesn't exist.

Hey Greenfield, its GW … course there's a main Big Rule Book :)

The reason the 4 pages version doesn't really seem to cover even some basic stuff is because its the "Getting Started" Quickplay set. Its talked about by GW Representatives – I linked to the comments in some other threads on AOS.

There does not seem to be any BRB forthcoming, although GW may eventually change its tune.