Baranovich | 11 Jul 2015 3:03 p.m. PST |
Just got back from being away from the computer for a day or so. Was checking out GW's site this afternoon, a bunch of new pre-order stuff is up on their site. I've posted a few recent threads supporting Age of Sigmar and speaking favorably about GW as a business in terms of their pricing. I checked all of their old stock for the classic factions from 8th edition, looks like all the prices for those are remaining the same. I do concede however that the pricing for their first boxed sets of AOS figures is most certainly pushing people's wallets to the brink and beyond. I can defend their rank and file boxed regiments at $35 USD when you are getting 16 or 20 figures. I can also defend their individual lord and hero figures at $20 USD each or packs of personalities of five figures for $20 USD or so. But I will admit here that when I saw their boxed set of AOS "Celestial Thunder", 20 miniatures for $200 USD – I admit that that is truly ridiculous pricing. $10 USD per mini? Dang. Their individual Lord Celestant at $33 USD is high, but it's a hero-sized mini with a lot of detail, so I can accept that one. But they also posted the first of their smaller boxed sets, The Stormcast Eternal Liberators are $50 USD for FIVE miniatures. Same will go for the Khorne boxed set of five minis – $50. USD or perhaps slightly lower, I don't know yet. I also admit that I scoffed at their $33 USD dollar "battle gauge", which is little more than a two-inch long ruler. Look, as I said in my other threads, I am no fanboy of GW. I AM A long-time fan of their fantasy world they have created and I have followed it and invested in it for a long time, and I still love the world they created. I will admit here however that given what I saw with their pricing today, they are taking a big risk that Warhammer devotees and newcomers will accept this level of pricing and will actually make a financial investment in new minis that are so expensive. For me personally, the only thing that I will probably buy from the AOS range is the hardcover background book at $74 USD, so that I have a reference book for the narrative of the new lore. At 264 pages, that's a pretty impressively thick book, so I can justify the price of that. Comparable hardcover books at Barnes and Noble go for $50 USD so it's not a terrible stretch. But I am keeping my Warhammer world back in 8th. I will utilize the AOS rules and the warscrolls and will probably enjoy the rules, but I will play primarily 8th and use my classic armies. So I just posted this thread just to show that I have a balanced view of this and that it's not an all or nothing thing. As I said, I acknowledge that GW charging $50 USD for ten Dwarf Hammerers was pushing it. But seeing five AOS miniatures for $50 USD and 20 miniatures for $200 USD! – well those prices will keep me away from actually collecting any of the AOS range unless they come out with cheaper boxed sets. At this point the only thing that looks remotely like a decent deal is their starter set at $125. USD At least in that case you get 47 miniatures plus other stuff in the box. But I admit that they went insane with the AOS boxed sets, even I didn't think they would push the pricing that far, and it disappoints me. |
McWong73 | 11 Jul 2015 3:17 p.m. PST |
At least you don't live in Australia. I shudder to think what the sticker price here will be. |
Winston Smith | 11 Jul 2015 3:28 p.m. PST |
I don't know of it has any bearing on Age if Sigmar , but I stopped in my local Hibby Town and saw a "Librarian" for $31. USD Single 28mm plastic figure in a blister. Ahem. I wouldn't pay that much for George Washington. |
Moe Ronn | 11 Jul 2015 3:52 p.m. PST |
But George Washington has that cool special rule where if you pretend you are riding a horse, you can't be hit by ranged fire from either the enemy or your own troops. C'mon… That's cheap at 31 dollars. You only need one! @McWong-"Celestial Thunder" 20 figs $340 USD Australian. |
Zargon | 11 Jul 2015 4:15 p.m. PST |
Hehehe and the blood will flow, ah what a hobby ;) Cheers and may the fanboys help buy the CEOs a new jetranger ( maybe with a jaccuzzi on board har har) I know I'm being harsh but there are lots of better ways to enjoy fantasy than being burned like this. |
Mortimer Graves | 11 Jul 2015 4:22 p.m. PST |
Current exchange rates are about US$1 = NZ$1.50 "Celestial Thunder" 20 figs is $400 New Zealand… or NZ$100 for five… so NZ$20 each. The "Lord-Celestant" is NZ$65. Nicely demonstrating the "let's kick Oceania" GW tax. :) |
chuck05 | 11 Jul 2015 4:31 p.m. PST |
Of course the prices on the new stuff went up. You need half as many to play the game so they have to charge double the price. |
Mortimer Graves | 11 Jul 2015 4:34 p.m. PST |
On the bright side, for NZ$65 you can also get a 3" ruler, crafted from metal, so that you can really whack the paint off those twenty dollar models. :) |
Brian Smaller | 11 Jul 2015 5:32 p.m. PST |
Current exchange rates are about US$1 = NZ$1.50 "Celestial Thunder" 20 figs is $400 USD New Zealand… or NZ$100 for five… so NZ$20 each. The "Lord-Celestant" is NZ$65. Nicely demonstrating the "let's kick Oceania" GW tax. :)
NZ$20 each? Wow. Now I know why I stick with historicals for the main part. I have stacks of GW Orcs and Bretonnians. Also quite a few dwarves – might have to start looking around the auctions and pick up some more. If fanboi's are getting into AoS plenty of them will have to sell off their old collections. |
xLAVAx | 11 Jul 2015 5:48 p.m. PST |
Which is why you should have pre-ordered the starter box for $125 USD and 47 minis. |
79thPA | 11 Jul 2015 6:25 p.m. PST |
Not my thing, and I am no GW fan, but you do need to look at how much it costs to buy an "army." What I mean is,can you buy a decent sized army for $250 USD? A lot of us have much more than that tied up in a single 25mm army. Of course, our armies are much larger for the same investment, but the net result is the same in that you spend X amount of money and get a complete army to play a game. Personally, I think the prices are crazy, but I understand the thought process of those who want to play the game. |
Mithmee | 11 Jul 2015 6:45 p.m. PST |
But I will admit here that when I saw their boxed set of AOS "Celestial Thunder", 20 miniatures for $200 USD USD – I admit that that is truly ridiculous pricing. $10 USD USD per mini? Dang As expected. |
Mithmee | 11 Jul 2015 6:47 p.m. PST |
What I mean is,can you buy a decent sized army for $250 USD USD? I would say no. |
Mortimer Graves | 11 Jul 2015 7:48 p.m. PST |
@xLAVAx, definitely, if you like the Sigmar guys or the chaos faction then the starter set is a hugely better deal. Still not cheap, but GW starter boxes are a good way to get the base troops for whatever armies they put in them – AoS starter is NZ$250 and you get, what, 10? of the basic Sigmarites (that's NZ$200 bought separately), plus all the other figures. The box prices just don't inspire a lot of hope/confidence however if one was thinking that a new Aelf or Duaradin (sp?) army was something they'd be keen on. |
Baranovich | 11 Jul 2015 8:11 p.m. PST |
@Mortimer Graves, That's my sentiment as well. Thing with GW is that they draw you in with the starter sets, which as you said is a hugely better deal. I think the idea is that they hope you'll just impulsively order a bunch of other stuff at the same time in the excitement of something new coming out. But they have to know that many gamers just won't tolerate it and are wise enough to stop with the starter box. The thing is that the pricing gouge is so glaring – you get 47 miniatures in the starter box for $125 USD…but then amazingly they break up that same starter set into smaller groups, and 20 minis becomes $200 USD, and a set of 5 minis becomes $50. USD So you get a deal up front but then you get gouged if you want to add to those starter forces. As I said in my original post, I still stand by the defense of GW's pricing for rank and file troops from 8th edition and before, you can still build decent core armies at a decent enough price in my opinion. But I acknowledge that this is most definitely the most drastic pricing gouges for new minis that I've seen. I can't remember a time when so few minis in a box cost that much money. The dark elves have a boxed set that approaches it, but this is a new level it, wow. Like I said, I expected GW prices with AOS, but not this bad. Dang. |
Intrepide | 11 Jul 2015 8:18 p.m. PST |
Grim darkness fallen Fanboy ashes drift away Investors will choke |
Mortimer Graves | 11 Jul 2015 8:31 p.m. PST |
@Baranovich, yep, cheap up-front intro offer to draw people in… there's at least one other "industry" with a pricing model like that. I've been considering Bolt Action recently… for the price of those 20 "Celestial Thunder" figures I could get a full starter army with 50-odd infantry, 1-2 vehicles, some crewed weapons… plus another starter army the same for my son. :) |
The Beast Rampant | 12 Jul 2015 12:01 a.m. PST |
It never fails to shock and befuddle me. As I've said before: to some degree, I can excuse ridiculously expensive character models and "specialty" troops. Since there is not a shadow of a pretext that what YOU might pay is some sort of fixed percentage of what the product costs to produce, anyway. Like I get four Essex 15mm cav minis to a pack, but only three mounted command. Only, like, to the tenth power. But how the hell can you charge such a markup on the grunt troops? Telling me, "it's not so bad if you just buy one or more starters" is sound advice, but a lame answer. You can't play it both ways. I guess should have just bought a bunch more White Dwarves and saved a Grant. They're just GIVING AWAY ten dollar minis with those things! Duuuude! How can they afford that? And I GOT to get me one of those weird measuring thingies. They're HEWN from metal, man. All for less that you'd pay for a back-alley lobotomy! Sorry, it's after 2AM. |
Lt Col Pedant | 12 Jul 2015 1:59 a.m. PST |
@ Intrepide: nice haiku. Spot on. |
xLAVAx | 12 Jul 2015 5:27 a.m. PST |
Well… it is a skirmish game, correct? You don't have to buy additional minis if you get the starter set, which is a pretty good deal, I think. For me, a set of the archers and a hero will pretty much do it for the Stormcast Eternals. So I'm looking at 100 Euros for the starter box, 80 Euros for the Archers/extra unit of Khorne and somewhere around 60 Euros for a couple heroes; a total of 240 Euros and 59 minis… which overall is 4 Euros a piece. If I wanted to go BIG… I would buy another starter box… now a total of 340 Euros and 106 minis at 3,20 a mini. Even if I buy a box of Eternal Liberators at 40 Euros to do some conversions of my second box minis it still comes to 380 Euros, 111 minis at 3,43 Euros per mini. Compare that with Infinity prices, for example. Tiny minis at 9 Euros (minimum) a pop. |
Baranovich | 12 Jul 2015 5:42 a.m. PST |
@xLAVAx, This is my thinking as well. The starter set is in my opinion a good deal, the best deal of everything new they have out now. And your point that it's a skirmish game is very valid. The starter set gives you enough minis to play practically any scenario for AOS. Plus with the warscrolls, you can incorporate all existing 8th edition forces. If my investment in AOS is $125 USD and then $74 USD for big hardcover lore book, I'm cool with that. That's almost 50 minis and a substantial hardcover for about $200 USD, I can accept that. Your point about two starter sets is also very valid, that is a MUCH better deal than trying to delve into the smaller sets. The thing about GW's other AOS stuff, I get it, I do. It's not that different from a movie theater or car dealership. They make more money on getting people to buy all the accessories and fluff than they do on the actual movie tickets and cars. Any movie theater will tell you they make more money from their overpriced soda and candy bars than they do actually showing movies. To some degree this comes down to the consumer not getting caught up in the hype. Things like the themed, colored "dice shakers" that GW made for AOS, those are pure silly fluff at $40 USD, they are hoping for excited impulse buys, no doubt. Same as their themed figure cases, that's just plain useless. I don't need $50 USD added to the cost of a miniatures case just to have the AOS logo painted on it. I know some people would disagree, but I still place a lot of value in their printed publications. They still make some of the nicest hardcover lore and background books of any games company out there. I have spent $60 USD on hardcover reference books that cover different military periods in history, the big coffee table size books that have huge photo layouts. So I don't mind the $74 USD price tag for the book. But again, the only thing I see that is really NEEDED to play AOS is a starter set, and the rules are free, so you're good to go. I also won't be participating in any of the "themed AOS terrain" kits which I am sure are coming. I can't imagine what the prices of those will be. My final note is that I long abandoned getting any paints or spray paints from GW. I did buy their standard color set a couple years ago(along with the Foundry paint set), so I could have the full range of trios. But I was just looking at whey they charge now for black and white primer – $17.00 USD per can!! Worse is that their other colors of spray paint are a whopping $19.50 USD a can. I mean wow. And their new "AOS Retributor Armor" spray paint is $28.00 USD!! I mean they have to know that people are laughing at that. I can still get Armory black primer at I think like $6.00 USD a can, something like that. |
Intrepide | 12 Jul 2015 6:33 a.m. PST |
Thank you BillyFish. It is better to laugh than cry. I will say this for GW, the fantasy fluff that they just wiped away was a fun and engaging world. A collective, fantasy mosaic that lasted for almost two generations. Their present business model is something to behold. |
Mithmee | 12 Jul 2015 7:23 a.m. PST |
Like I said, I expected GW prices with AOS, but not this bad I expected it and I also expect that the Army books will be overprice as well. Those free War Scrolls were just a bone thrown to players. Oh and the thing about the starter set is that it only has two forces in it. So if you want to field; High Elves, Dwarves, Orks etc… You will pay through the nose. That is the GW way. |
xLAVAx | 12 Jul 2015 7:59 a.m. PST |
I'm sure they will offer starter sets for all the different factions. From the snippets of video I've seen they will look a lot more "fantastic." ;) |
mgdavey | 12 Jul 2015 8:10 a.m. PST |
I have to say that this latest round of releases has also run me out of AoS. I pre-ordered the starter set, and at this point I feel like a bit of an idiot. My breaking point was the $33 USD Lord Celestant. If people want to pay that much for a single infantry figure, God bless them, but not me. I'm beginning to suspect that GW's AoS plan is a bit like a online game where the initial game is cheap or free, but the in-game purchases you need to keep competitive will be where they try to make their money. |
xLAVAx | 12 Jul 2015 8:15 a.m. PST |
Well, 100 Euros for 47 minis plus 26 Euros for a hero comes out to 2,63 Euros per mini. Enjoy! |
Baranovich | 12 Jul 2015 8:51 a.m. PST |
@Mithmee, I know that I started this thread with the AOS miniatures as the main focus, but I have to tell everyone that I'm even more shocked at the prices of their spray paints and tools than I am the minis. Even though we are divergent in many of our views on many aspects of GW, I have to say in this case you are right, GW just went off the hook with this one. I don't deny that GW's prices have always been high, but for a long time they were very comparable to other mini companies, and many of their 8th edition plastics core units and personality minis are still very comparable and in my view reasonable. And the same went for a long time with their tools and supplies. Pricey but no more so than other online sites selling the same thing. But it appears they have even gone and rebranded and redesigned all their tools as well to make them exclusive GW hobby tools. They now have $33 USD "fine detail cutters",(i.e. clippers) and a $17.50 USD "mold line remover",(Exacto knife with a curved blade) and perhaps the most ridiculous item on their entire website – the $25 USD "Citadel Knife" which is LITERALLY nothing but an Exacto knife which you can get for about $2.50 USD at any craft store or big box store, and a pack of five extra blades for another $1.00 USD or so at any craft store. Most unsettling is that they also have their spray paints with all official GW names, and as I said in my post above, the price for single cans is well…nuts. So when I say that I support GW and I love the fantasy world they created, I say it while also shaking my head at the Citadel branding of simple, cheap hobby tools that any hobbyist who is even half awake would know NOT to buy from them! |
Zargon | 12 Jul 2015 9:08 a.m. PST |
LOL I smell fear poop ;) its starting to sound very expensive to play a simple little game isn't it? €380.00 EUR… xLAVAx you just spent the whole monthly budget for most struggling families in this harsh world, no dude you're swinging that bat so utterly wildly ;x a bit of humility goes a long way. Its part of a wonderful hobby but let's be honest this is not for the majority anymore. Cheers here's hoping all your gaming dreams come true all. |
Fishbuckle | 12 Jul 2015 10:54 a.m. PST |
I get the impression that the current GW strategy is to include loads of extras on sprues. I'm pretty sure their site says your box of 5 AoS guys come with 12 heads or something. I'm sure this is great for modellers, but as a gamer I would rather pay less and have 5 figures come with 5 heads and not end up paying for a bunch of plastic I won't or can't use. |
Baranovich | 12 Jul 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
@Chris Walkley, That is an interesting point, I had not thought about that. I agree that as a gamer I'd want five figures to come with 5 heads and pay less than have a multi-diverse kit with extras that might not use. For me as a modeler and gamer, the flip side of that is that there are times when all those extra bits are really a good value, such as in their terrain kits. The Citadel Watchtower and also kits like the woods and Skullvane Manse have a ton of leftovers which you can use as details for other terrain projects. But in this case you are absolutely right, having all those heads for 5 expensive figures is a waste, would be better to have like 10 figures for the same price that all came with a standard head. |
Mithmee | 12 Jul 2015 2:42 p.m. PST |
but I have to tell everyone that I'm even more shocked at the prices of their spray paints and tools So true, you can buy this file set for far less than what GW would sell it for.
The same goes for their paints. I buy my paints from Michael's now, you get more and they cost so much less. |
xLAVAx | 12 Jul 2015 5:51 p.m. PST |
@Zargon… I was explaining that IF you want to build a large army you can do so for about 4 Euros a mini. Is their stuff that you can buy cheaper from other manufacturers… sure. But with the release of Age of Sigmar it's time for folks to use a little math and realize that the mantra of pricing gouging on mini's by GW does not apply to AoS. Which, I believe is what this thread is all about. |
Judge Doug | 13 Jul 2015 10:58 a.m. PST |
I think they are overpriced but I don't think anybody here realizes how large these figures are. A normal Stormcast model is a full head and shoulders taller than a Space Marine, larger than a Terminator – a modern Terminator, not the Rogue Trader Terminators. They are on 40mm round bases. For instance
|
Mitochondria | 14 Jul 2015 4:37 a.m. PST |
Buying into AoS is a dead end. The official rules, in short order, will cheapen the effectiveness of the starter set minis in a game. To play with any chance of winning you will buy submit to price gouging. To hell with them. Annual report will be out soon. I cannot wait form them to utterly fail and someone with sense to pick up the IP. |
Judge Doug | 14 Jul 2015 6:24 a.m. PST |
Buying into AoS is a dead end well Mitochondria buying whatever you're interested in is also a dead end. Oh, so you're saying you buy the stuff you like because you like it? But that can't possibly be why others buy things |
Baranovich | 14 Jul 2015 5:20 p.m. PST |
It's interesting to read all of your comments on this and varying viewpoints. Strange thing is, being in my mid-40s now, I have calmed down a great deal in terms of giving in to the new "hype" over things, be it a movie franchise or a new game. I love the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit movies, but I didn't even see the last one in the theater, I calmly waited for the DVD release. I still own an Xbox 360 with some timelessly awesome games, I have no need for an Xbox One for years to come as far as I'm concerned. Wish AOS, I feel like I'm sort of sitting this one out in terms of actually "playing a new game." That's not how I see this. For me Warhammer Fantasy Battle is still 8th Edition. And AOS is a new skirmish game that GW has put out that is a new era in Warhammer lore. Beyond buying perhaps the lore book so that I have the history of AOS on my shelf along with the rest of the Warhammer lore, I really don't have much desire to buy any of the minis. They're really cool sculpts, but I've got five full armies from 7th and 8th, and I'm content to play that into infinity. Just a note though. Ebay is EXPLODING with AOS stuff, looks like dealers are buying up the boxed sets and breaking up the contents. I'm seeing the set of 5 Liberators for like $15 USD, the Celestant commander for like $15 USD, the 96-page book for $10 USD, and even the complete sprues for both sides of good and chaos for like $30 USD. The boxed set itself is going for as low as $90 USD with free shipping from some dealers. Now I find this very interesting for several reasons. First, this means that the AOS stuff IS being bought up retail by dealers and by individuals. The dealers or stores of course get a discount from GW, but nevertheless both the stores and individuals are buying up the stock from GW first, and then reselling it. From GW's perspective, they don't care if let's say I decided to get into AOS by taking advantage of huge discounts on Ebay. They are still making their money up front from the original purchase the dealer made from them. Just because I end up getting AOS contents for a fraction of GW retail, THEY still made the original sale for that content at full GW price. That's the part about Ebay that kind of makes me chuckle. People say that the secondary market on Ebay is killing GW. Well, for older stuff yes. But in this case you have a frenzy of buying brand new merchandise and then it's being resold because of the hype and demand for it. And in turn if the dealers sell out, they buy more directly from GW and so on and so on. I don't see how that hurts GW. Here's the thing – for me personally, I did some math tonight. I realized that the rules are already free, the warscrolls are free – and I can that 96 page lore book for $10 USD, and I can get myself a Celestial force, infantry and commands, for like $50 USD for about 50 minis! Same goes for the forces of Khorne. $60 USD for two full forces plus the book from the box? That ain't bad. As I said, even though I don't have any intense interest in collecting new armies beyond 8th, the fact that Ebay makes it possible for me to get about 100 minis for $100 USD plus another $10 USD for the lore book, is pretty tempting, brings the prices down into a range where I might actually care about investing in Sigmar. Compare what I can get on Ebay vs. what GW is charging directly for their "Celestial Thunder" for example, 20 minis for $200. USD I can get the lore book AND 100 minis for about half that. That's pretty extraordinary. |
Baranovich | 14 Jul 2015 5:39 p.m. PST |
Just saw a listing on Ebay for the 5 mini-set of Stormcast Eternals Liberators for $10.99 USD + $3.00 USD shipping. Vs. $50.00 USD + $8.00 USD from GW for the same set. You could get five sets of those off Ebay for just about the price of GW's one set. Dang. Dang, I could actually get into AOS thanks to Ebay! |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 14 Jul 2015 6:32 p.m. PST |
Sorry, but $50 USD for 5 rank-and-file miniatures is too rich even for my blood. And they can't even be used with conventional 28mm – 32mm WHFB figures without looking ridiculous due to the difference in size. But I wouldn't put the nail in GW's coffin just yet though, because to newbie 12-year olds with large allowances or birthday cash it may be quite "affordable." They don't have the same sense of value as we do. And their grateful parents probably prefer them playing with toy soldiers instead of twiddling their thumbs in front of a console. |
nsolomon99 | 14 Jul 2015 7:32 p.m. PST |
My son and I are already playing the new rules and they've inspired us to buy a new army, Dwarves BUT we wont be buying the figures from GW, even my 11 year old can see the value is not there. We've searched around the web and like the Dwarves from a Spanish company – better sculpts and a fraction of the price. We dont really need the new box set – we already have a huge Chaos army and the Stormcast Eternals haven't yet grabbed us. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 14 Jul 2015 8:44 p.m. PST |
Good for you, nsolomon99. It's never too early to teach your kids value and frugality. I only wish non-gaming parents don't give gift money freely to their kids without proper supervision and just let them blow the cash however they wish at the nearest GW store or FLGS. |
Mortimer Graves | 15 Jul 2015 4:38 a.m. PST |
@nsolomon99, Avatars of War? Or MOM? Personally I'm rather partial to the Avatars dwarves, just wish they could bring more out in hard plastic. |