"What do you think of Age of Sigmar?" Topic

What is your opinion of the new fantasy system from Games Workshop?

I dont like it.

It is too simplified for my tastes. I also dont like it that the current range is going to go OOP as new models come out.

I've seen it demoed. The WHFB players don't like it. My friends don't like it. They complain there's no play balance to the game and it's too simple. My friends also echo chuck05 complaint about figures being OOP by GW. I sold off my GW High Elves before Age of Sigmar came out. I didn't like the way WHFB was going. I stopped playing about 18 months ago, though…

Simple skirmish game which I have to admit is quite fun.
Best played 50 minis or less imho. I also like the rules that monsters get less effective the more wounds they take.
Not however a mass combat game.

I downloaded all of it. I realized then, that I had no interest in reading it. Any of it. Warhammer, whether the Fantasy or 40K flavour, seems to have been left in my past. I still have some Tau miniatures I would like to expand into a gameable army, but no interest in actually playing 40K. My assorted WFB minis have been parcelled out over the years as bad guys for D&D, or traded for the D&D bad guts and occasional clickies that I needed.

It's a weird feeling. I spent 20-odd years as a GW fan boy, and now… nothing.

I wondered if some of the WHFB stuff might be going away. Some of the siege equipment is on the list-of-things-to-buy-one-of-these-days for my historical armies, and I'm thinking maybe I should get serious about it.

Grelber

Still undecided. I played a few smaller battles yesterday. It goes quick but feels a little bland. I hate to say it's too simple but it's quite a different experience from my many years of WFB. You have to try it without making comparisons because the two have little similarity.

It is the return of "Herohammer" but with far simple rules.

That still has balance issues and needs some FAQ's.

I wondered if some of the WHFB stuff might be going away.

It will all go away, and GW will throw it away rather then sell it for less.

Really sucks for all those individuals who spent hundreds on those overprice books over the last year.

Not impressed – will be going back to my cherished 2nd edition (with simplifications) I think – this isn't my kind of Warhammer. Not that I play that often anyway these days.

It might actually be the game that gets me back into Warhammer. I got put off many years ago when it became a mass combat game requiring vast numbers of figs. The refocus on smaller armies is very appealing.

Song of Blades and Heroes (and the expansions) is a better skirmish game IMO. GW was dead to me a long time ago. Armies of Arcana is a much better Mass Combat System…as is Kings of War. Fantasy games should, by their very nature, be generic in regards to miniatures. There are many kinds of "orcs", "elves", ect. I don't need some company telling me what I can and cannot use as a game playing piece. I would sooner use paper and erasers than give those clowns any of my coin.

As others have noted: this is a skirmish game, while I prefer larger battles. Be interested to see if/how it develops into a big battle game, but no particular interest in what I've seen or heard so far.

It's a weird feeling. I spent 20-odd years as a GW fan boy, and now… nothing.

Same here. I have some 10k in points of 40k Orks and a couple of other armies for WFB/40k, but my inclination to play, or get any of the new stuff, is now zero.
I would not take the Age of Sigmar as a gift, as it would just clog up my historical collections.

Somewhere GW lost me. Its not this release, but AoS certainly goes along the way …

I've been a player of Warhammer since the very first edition. I tend to drift away from the game and then back again every few editions. So, I am far from an expert on the game and most of my figures are rather old and my biggest army hasn't been supported for many years – but I still follow the game and play as I can.

No big games yet but I must say that [so far] I am some-what impressed. Here is why I like the game: The game/rules is/are really rather old school. The rules are only 4 pages long. Sure there are plenty of holes in the rules (like no point system), but any group that plays together on a fairly regular basis shouldn't have a problem with that. Might be tough for competitive play, but I'm sure that will be worked out – either by the community or GW or both. Given the way the games plays, you don't need 100s of figures. A good, fun game can be played with far fewer figures.

Sure, there are better games/rules out there. Sure, this isn't your Dad's Warhammer. It is a new game with a familiar/recognizable setting. Play it as a new game, and it really isn't half bad. Play it as ‘the next Warhammer' and I'm sure you will dislike it. It is now much more likely that I'll be playing more Warhammer [AoS] than I have in many years. Why? These [new] rules make it very easy to play pickup games; much easier to get people into the game, even if they have never played before. Bottom line for me is: I like the rules. They are not perfect, nor complete, but the game is easy to pick up. Plays fairly quickly and does not require lots and lots of figures.

I have played two games so far and both were pretty close fought. I really like it.

I had only played 8th edition maybe half a dozen times or so. Probably hadn't played 7th more then twice that.

I prefer earlier editions, but AoS is probably going to be my go to fantasy game for the immediate future.

I have consistently liked GW's fantasy world of battles since the late 80s. For me, there's just something about their world that is unique to me and has kept me engaged with it. They just have created for the gaming world what Tolkien did for fantasy literature.

When I think of fantasy gaming worlds I think of The Old World first.

I enjoy the hobby side of it as much if not more than the gaming itself.

3rd edition got me hooked and I've stayed hooked ever since.

As far as AOS goes, I'm torn. I'm one who likes to see a classic fantasy world remain intact. So in that regard, I don't like at all the world has essentially been blown up and now exists only in shards of reality floating out in space. Not my cup of tea.

However, I do appreciate that GW has completed their "narrative" for their world, and have included sort of an Armageddon-type final battle between good and evil. I like that they finished their story of their world so to speak.

To the people who say they can't stand the style of the new minis, well my take on it is that these minis are's supposed to match the style of the Old World. That's kind of the whole point. These are like the forces of the Gods coming to down to settle affairs among the mortal races of creation. As such, they have to look celestial or perhaps even have a religious aspect about them, which they most certainly do.

The Stormcast Eternals really evoke images of a biblical event of some kind, with supernatural beings riding down on chariots on the clouds.

In the same spririt as Tolkien borrowing key elements from the bible to use in Lord of the Rings, I see a similar thing being done here to a lesser extent.

And I find it all very interesting.

I have not downloaded or read the rules as of yet. I have read a few demo games and my reaction was meh! As someone stated above for fantasy skirmish there is Song of Blades and Heroes et.all., and GW had a wonderful fantasy skirmish game calls Mordhiem. I have played WFB since 3rd edition and right now I am considering trying to find a copy of that old single hard back that first got me into the hobby of miniature gaming. Yes that was a clunky system but it was fun and allowed for a lot of flexibility of force design. To me as a franchise WFB hit its best in terms of a points based game system with 6th edition and that is the game I want to play if I was going to play. 8th Edition to me brought back all the worst of 4th and 5th edition, but instead of being Hero Hammer it became Monster Hammer.

Like Punkrabbit I was once a huge fan of the GW games but have moved to other things I now find more interesting and compelling. I guess you just cannot go home again. Once I expanded into historical miniature war games and genres such as VSF, and pulp whole new worlds opened that to me are just more fun.

Another issue I have, and again has been mentioned above, is it appears that GW has pretty much begun to drop the older line of figures. The figures for the AoS box set that comes in at a whopping $175 USD has 47 figures and the design of the figures look more like Medieval Fantasy Space Marines or knock offs of Warmachine figures. Of course the figure are fantastic looking but clearly they will not fit with existing WFB ranges. This is a completely different game. Fine and kudos to GW as I am sure it will at least sell well in the beginning.

'nuff said

I need more time to absorb the game. I like simpler rule systems and loathe having to thumb through pages and pages of rules and addendum's. I sometimes wonder why use miniatures at all when playing WH40K, when my opponent and I can just throw rules at each other from the rulebook and codexes. I have become more of a skirmish game player as I get older, not wanting to spend all my time painting rather than playing. I just need more time to absorb this new game.

for some time now our club has been moving more towards skirmish games out of necessity; we need to carry everything to the pub for an evening's gaming and once there need to be able to set up and play quickly in order to resolve a game. That said Saga is very popular and that game has recently introduced fantasy elements with its Revenants. A simple fantasy skirmish could catch on.

As for massed fantasy battles I always preferred the Reaper rules anyway.

I get it that they are trying something new but I think they could have put a bit more effort into the rules given what we've seen…

Moving to a nice small skirmish unit system would have been nice, and in the past GW has come up with some brilliant games.. If they were going to start something new in fantasy some of that brilliance would have helped..

Sad…I actually like GW, WFB 3rd edition was my gateway drug into wargaming, and I think they have some fantastic games in their history, Epic, Bloodbowl, Man o War, Mordheim, Necromunda.. so many.. I was hoping they'd surprise us again instead of this "cramp all your minis on the table and roll some dice" thing.. :(

Now I'm looking forward to Dragon Rampart and Frostrgrave… that should be fun :) …

He is probably too old, Sigmar.

I don't need a new skirmish game Warhammer is a game of massed battles not oversized dorks with even more oversized weapons

The King is dead

Long live the King

..GW marches on

You can get real Cheesy with it.

Here is one example:

Well one thing about AoS I could find a use for those 45 High Elves Reavers that I got off of Ebay a few years ago.

You could make for a very nasty mobile army with nothing but Cavalry in it.

They get two attacks each with their bows if within 3" of an enemy unit and if they are outside of 3" they get three attacks.

Throw in Tyrion with his 6 Attacks D3 wounds along with some Dragon Princes, Silver Helms, Mages on Elven Steeds and Chariots.

Yup I bet I can come up with cheesy stuff from the other War Scrolls as well.

Oh and I could run those Reavers in Units of 5, 15 or just one unit of 45.

So either 9 x 15 attacks, 3 x 45 attacks or 1 x 135 attacks.

Shoot unit(s) to pieces then have Tyrion and his Dragon Princes finished them off in hand to hand.

Typical spiteful GW corporate behavior. "You dont buy the warhammer mythos anymore so we just destroyed the world."
What if you were a big fan? What if D&D said Greyhawk just blew up?

Tell your 8 year old, son we cant play warhammer anymore the world blew up. Oh well he liked 40k more anyway…

Seriously the chaos guys look okay but I dont like the celestials. The rules look okay-I have ADHD at least I can reread them everyday….

I like the idea that releases will be part of an ongoing story. I guess they are doing away with the line-up-and fight thing in favour of scenarios with prescripted forces. In that sense, the complaints of no point system are moot. It does away with the failed model of ret-conning and rules shuffling to encourage existing players to buy more. Now they will need to buy things to keep up with the narrative instead. That's an interesting change but will upset the competitive people.

However, I think the rules are too basic and other publishers have done this style of game better. I don't really like the figures and have no interest in the new background. I play various systems with a group of friends so I don't need to stay "current" to get my fix with strangers.

I wish GW well with this but have no interest in playing AoS at all.

6th Edition was my favorite…. So may pick this up out of curiosity but I'm in the "waiting for Lion Rampant" clique…

Just played it today. First reaction…GW enraged 20% of their customer base for THIS? AoS simplified things that didn't really need simplifying and ignored too many broken things. Random comments:

1. The game is a clumsy, tedious "rules by exception" system in which (effectively) every unit has its own set of special rules. Tedious in the extreme. And seriously, GW, you couldn't give us a summary of all the special rules? We spent far more time leafing thru the poorly organized "war scrolls" than playing the game. I had to create an army roster…why wasn't one provided?

2. I think the combat system is better than WHFB, though not extremely so. It could be retrofitted onto WHFB, I think.

3. Melees go on for frickin ever. The game devolves into a fantasy version of WWI.

4. The lack of formed units is NOT an improvement. The game looks much worse and the rules do a very poor job of explaining how units can "pile in". There will be a lot of player bickering in these rules I suspect.

5. It is truly amazing how disorganized GW can make a 4 page set of rules, (That's bovine defecation, by the way. The scores of special abilities (2-4 per unit on average) would consume many additional pages.)

6. No system to balance games? That's just lazy.

7. It's almost like GW was flipping off all of its existing fantasy players.

8. AoS is way too poor a design to inspire hordes of new fantasy fans. And it's too different from WHFB to attract WHFB players, I'd wager.

9. 40K fans…be very afraid if you like the current version of 40k.

10. For decades, I've thought GW should give its rules away, create rules that easily allow huge armies and sell the heck out of miniatures. AoS is disappointing in that regard.

Bottom line -- this is an extremely underwhelming set of rules. GW should be ashamed of such amateurism.

No system to balance games? That's just lazy.

No that is GW being GW.

There hasn't been any balance in any of their rules since before the year 2000.

Pretty sure GW will follow PP with Warmahordes….watch out for the next edition of 40k, which will allow you to fight Space marines from one plane of existence against your Sigmar army?

It is the return of "Herohammer" but with far simple rules.

That's pretty much 100% false. Infantry can take down heroes and monsters with far greater ease than any edition of Warhammer.

Put that Hero in an unit and then try to take him down.

Have you seen the stats on those Heroes.

Lots of wounds great saves and lots of Attacks.

Take Tyrion

6 Wounds
6 Attacks each attack can cause D3 wounds
3+ save

There will be players who will consider those D3 wounds to spread across the unit instead of just six models.

Just as they did with the Hydra Sword from many Editions ago.

I have already figure out that a very Mobile High Elf force of Chariots, Dragon Princes led by Tyrion, Mages on Elven Steeds and lots of High Elf Reavers would be very nasty.

Oh and I do own lots of High Elf Reavers, like 45 of them.

Back under WFB they would never have seen the table due to their point costs but now if I wanted to play AoS they would destroy units do to their ability to shoot 2 or 3 shots each.

So yes this is "Herohammer".

The core rules are way too simple.
we tried it.
We don't like it.
If you couldn't do a better design yourself then try a few more rule sets.

Rules are too different to everything I've played since 5th ed, becoming a kind of a mob vs. mob. Chaos models from AoS are not too bad, but I don't play Chaos. "Sigmarines" are awful. If I wanted spacemarines, I'd be playing 40K. Guess we're looking at another implementation of the infamous 80-20 business rule – "Our spacemarines are giving us 80% of sales? Why don't we made fantasy spacemarines and have the same luck?"
Some gaming communities even started developing their own "9th edition"…I wasn't much of a player, but I've bought new stuff they have made for wood elfs/\high elfs/dwarfs, and I would be getting bretonnians and empire if they made the models that I like…however it seems it just not going to happen.

Just as another data point:

Talked to the manager at my FLGS today.

He got in 8 boxes, sold six, has one on lay-away and one left on the shelf. He is ordering 3 more for the weekend.

He plays GW games and hates AoS. Hates the fluff change, hates the minis and hates are rules. He is even dropping out of 40K.

A lot of the WFB crew are either switching to or are only going to play WarmaHordes.

I have no interest in buying it, not because I think it blows but because I have no interest in fantasy and haven't played the setting since Target Games AB's Chronopia.

But I think it's a good idea to reboot the aging and stagnant franchise and to infuse it with new blood, even if it comes at the risk of alienating some of its existing fanbase. For WHFB to remain viable now and into the future, it must appeal to the next generation of gamers, currently 12 years or younger, who find the mass ranked armies in its current format unwieldy and inaccessible.

I've always thought GW should make fantasy a skirmish game using round bases. Looks like they finally agreed.

A couple more observations from one who has no interest in this new incarnation of WHFB (but an avid 40K enthusiast nonetheless).

The two armies in the starter boxset are the fantasy equivalents of Blood Angels and Khorne Berserkers. The so-called "Stormcast Eternals" in particular resemble the over-the-top, excessively stylized miniatures typically associated with WarmaHordes. You can easily imagine 40K Blood Angels players (I'm not one of them, as I'm a Howling Griffons guy) pondering conversion possibilities for Commander Dante, Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Guard for their featured facemasks.

Those who prefer old-school Citadel miniatures may not care much for them, but they have that certain "cool factor" to the 12 year olds.

I frankly couldn't care less if AoS succeeds or not in breathing new life to WHFB. Even if GW decides to drop WHFB altogether and only support 40K, I suspect I will continue to support that side of the hobby regardless of how big or small the company ends up being. If GW has to shrink its business back to 1980 levels, so be it. I started in the hobby with GW and will likely die with it.

Have you seen the stats on those Heroes.

I've seen the game get played, have you?

but they have that certain "cool factor" to the 12 year olds.

I'm 34, my brother is 39, and we each bought two copies; and my two friends who also bought copies are both 30.

The minis have a "cool factor" that is off the charts. They are 40mm tall, true-scale (proper proportions), highly detailed miniatures.

So my take on it is that they have a certain "cool factor" that the 65 year old grognards on TMP dislike as they go back to slopping Humbrol enamels on their lead flats.

But gosh we also play historicals so I must be blowing your mind

I've seen the game get played, have you?

No, and more than likely I won't because WFB is dead where I live and has been dead for nearly 15 years.

But sure if you put your Hero out by themselves they will get killed.

That happen back in "Herohammer" as well.

So you give them an unit and they gain protection.

There are no longer any way to challenge them in AoS.

Plus they have all been beefed up.

Oh. Mithmee is here, discussing a game he hasnt played and has no intention of playing? Imagine that.

Characters can't join units in Age of Sigmar.

Keep up the good work, Mithmee!

I have played WFB since 1989. I have read the rules and watched AOS games played online. The game is completely lacking in tactical maneuver. There are no flanks, no rear, no advantage to careful positioning. Rather than run away if they fail morale, units melt away like undead used to. They will essentially fight to the last. So the battles devolve into big masses swarming together and rolling buckets of dice until one side disappears. Maybe that is fun for some people, but to me this system is inferior to WFB. Add to that the fact that GW blew up the prior universe and, I expect, will be making all our old armies obsolete due to the timeline moving forward apparently millennia, and this is a slap in the face to long-time WFB fans. It's very disappointing. I will continue to play 8th or perhaps Kings of War.

I also intend to continue playing 8th. However this Sunday I am going to try my first non-demo game of AoS, using one of my WFB armies.

Characters can't join units in Age of Sigmar.

Okay but nothing is stopping them from being 1" away from a unit either.

So you take that kickass Character and place him so that unit ends up supporting him anyway.

Plus if they have 2" weapon you can get really cheesy by ensuring that they are 2" away from a fight so can still fight and have that unit sitting at 1" away.

So that the enemy unit will have to fight the unit but can't reach the character.

I've never really understood GW's business model. As a player of WFB on and off since First Edition, and an interested spectator of the proliferation of games systems and figures over the last few years, what's clear (to me) is that rules sell figures, and expanding figure lines and factions keep the cash registers clinking.
GW shot that cash cow in the foot years ago when they continually cranked up the price of their minis to eye watering levels. Take Empire Great Swords – nice minis; I like the idea of a mildly fantasy version of Landsknect / Doppel Soldern on the table top. But at £30.00 GBP for 10 or whatever they peaked at, no one bought them; they weren't even that good a unit (terrible tendency to die very quickly, so all that lovely painting got taken off the table by turn 2). So rather than fix their broken pricing model, they made it more overtly cynical. Take the Khorne Skull Cannon at a miserly 135 points. It's a daemonic chariot with a cannon that can move and shoot, and you can take two in a standard 2000pt army. So why wouldn't you? Oh yeah, it's going to cost me £100.00 GBP and it's a pretty crappy model to boot. Could have been done so much better……
Once GW realised that releasing expensive and 'bent' models that appeal to power players wasn't staunching the flow of money away from the game to more exciting and dynamic alternatives (and even little Johny's pester power can't convince mum and dad to pay £50.00 GBP for a couple of average sculpts) they've decided to effectively merge WFB and 40k and cut all the long standing players who grew up with and loved WFB out of the picture, and persist with average sculpts for the new stuff. This is all about the kids. And while I get that (you need new blood to keep those cash registers clinking) if GW hadn't been so blatantly cynical in the first place, there would be no need for it.
It's interesting that all the old guard that were booted out of GW by the accountants have since done pretty well for themselves setting up businesses and doing what they weren't permitted to do at GW. The Perrys can produce a beautiful box of Medieval knights (12 mounted or 30+ on foot) for £20.00 GBP – so why can't GW? Lower the price, raise the quality, sell more, make more money – not churn out crap, put the price up and treat us all like dummies. Och well, plus ca change I guess. Personally I won't be going anywhere near AoS and while for old time's sake I wouldn't want to see the demise of GW, I can't help but feel this is another act in a long and painful demise :-( The competition are doing it quicker, better and cheaper.

Well said, very well said

Take Empire Great Swords – nice minis; no one bought them; they weren't even that good a unit (terrible tendency to die very quickly

Yup, due to the rules even if they charged another unit they always fought last…

Why?

True in 8th Edition GW added in the "Step Up Rule" but even that would not help these guys.

Take this example:

An unit of 25 Great Swords gets into a fight with an unit of 15 Swordmasters and they charged the Swordmasters.

The likely outcome of this battle would be…

The Great Swords defeated nearly 100% of the time. Because of the morale rules where it is rare for most units to fight more than 1-2 rounds of melee before an unit breaks.

I would much rather see the fight be against both units where each unit gets a die for every five models (this cuts down on the bucket of dice aspects) plus another dice if there is a hero in the unit or if the unit is superior.

So lets change out one of the Great Swords with a hero and using the above and fight this battle again with those Swordmasters which is a superior unit.

Great Swords would have 5 dice due to numbers and one extra dice due to the hero – so a total of 6 dice (I prefer D10's over D6's)

The Swordmasters get 3 dice due to numbers and one extra dice for being superior – so a total of 4 dice.

With this the Swordmasters are not likely to win this battle but they will hurt the Great Swords.

But that is not what GW made WFB into.

Nope they made it into a "BUCKET OF DICE" game.

So you had Dark Elf players fielding that large unit of 40 Witch Elves because they would be rolling 30-40 dice.

So nearly every player had their "DEATHSTAR" unit.

There once was a 8th Edition event where a Tomb Kings player made a unit of 90 Skeletons Archers that were led by a Hero that granted special ability onto the unit and also had a Magical Standard that would make their attacks Flaming.

Oh and the Special Ability of the Character – he made the units attacks into Poison.

So all he needed to do was just point this unit at his opponent's Deathstar unit and within 1-2 rounds of shooting the game was over.

Needless to say he won the event quite easily.

That was at the beginning of 8th Edition and the reason why this worked is because…

GW never put in limits of unit sizes.

So I could actually field my 400 Goblins in one unit if I wanted to.

Have to agree with Monophthalmus. My two boys wanted the AoS starter set and it seemed good value and an easy set of rules to learn. So I bought it as a present and it all looked positive.

Then I saw the prices for the next releases and there is no way I'm paying that for add-ons. I'm better off getting another starter set to make bigger games. If prices were more practical I wouldn't have minded adding new figures here and there. As it is, they get nothing.

Thing is GW is counting on their Fanboyz to buy them at those very overprice costs.

But they've turned all those fan boyz into ex's. They even kicked the arse out of Forge World. Such a shame….

Anything Mithmee says

I haven't been this disappointed since yesterday!