Leadpusher  | 29 Jun 2015 6:01 p.m. PST |
Just wondering what the shotgun scatter pattern would be and how would it compare to a sawed off shotgun pattern. I would think the sawed off would have a wider pattern. But how much wider? What would be the comparative effective range of a sawed off shotgun?
Thanks for any suggestions. |
| Old Jarhead | 29 Jun 2015 6:26 p.m. PST |
Leadpusher, What gauge shotgun? what barrel length? what size shot?, there are so many variables |
| cosmicbank | 29 Jun 2015 6:27 p.m. PST |
Sawed off wider at a shorter range. I heard there was a Well Fargo custom coach gun with a barrel that was flatter at the end to make the pattern wider without out making it taller and a the pellets going in the ground. I have been unable to prove this however. |
| TNE2300 | 29 Jun 2015 6:43 p.m. PST |
Shotgun Choke and Shot Pattern
link a sawed off shotgun would have cylinder choke |
| Mako11 | 29 Jun 2015 7:21 p.m. PST |
And more importantly, at what distance? My gut-level guess is twice the spread, and half the distance, though of course that could be way off. |
| jdginaz | 29 Jun 2015 11:29 p.m. PST |
And of course the wider the pattern the less effect the shot would have on the target. |
| Mako11 | 29 Jun 2015 11:36 p.m. PST |
At distant ranges, yes, but in close, the effect would be devastating. |
| The Shadow | 30 Jun 2015 5:51 a.m. PST |
It doesn't matter if a shotgun is sawed off or not. The barrel diameter would remain the same at any length. So the diameter of the pattern would be the same at any length. The only change in pattern would be determined by whether the barrel is "choked" or not. A choke is a device that fits into the end of the barrel and changes its diameter. Some shotguns come with several chokes to customize the size of the pattern and make the pattern tighter. The only reason to saw off the end of barrel, and usually the stock as well, is to make the overall length of the shotgun shorter. Usually to make it more easily concealable. So, to answer your question, assuming that there is no choke in the full length barrel and the sawed off barrel, there is no difference at all. If the choke is the same in both barrels, again, there would be no difference between the two. |
| Dn Jackson | 30 Jun 2015 6:32 a.m. PST |
"And of course the wider the pattern the less effect the shot would have on the target." Not quite true. The wider the pattern the less chance of getting a hit, or a number of hits. Movies really get it wrong when showing shotgun blasts. It doesn't blow the center out of targets or people, it just puts a number of holes in them equal to the number of pellets that hit them. :) I believe buckshot is .32 caliber so a close hit will put a larger number of .32 caliber holes in someone than a longer shot with more scatter will. |
| The Shadow | 30 Jun 2015 7:27 a.m. PST |
>>I believe buckshot is .32 caliber so a close hit will put a larger number of .32 caliber holes in someone than a longer shot with more scatter will.<< Right. 00 buckshot, which has been pretty much the standard for use by law enforcement and the military for years, has a shell that contains nine .32 caliber balls. At very close range, like across the room, the pellets won't expand much at all and will hit in a cluster leaving one fairly large hole. Even at 20 feet there isn't much expansion. You could probably cover most of the holes with your hand. For gaming purposes, and not taking in to consideration the brand of ammo which varies somewhat, using an un-choked barrel, for an expansion that will hit more than one person, the distance would have to be more like 40 feet. See TNE2300's linked chart in a post above. |
| rmaker | 30 Jun 2015 9:37 a.m. PST |
I heard there was a Well Fargo custom coach gun with a barrel that was flatter at the end to make the pattern wider without out making it taller I doubt that would have been effective. It sure didn't work for Shuvalov's "Secret Howitzer". |
| ArmymenRGreat | 30 Jun 2015 6:15 p.m. PST |
@The Shadow – Isn't it sawed off = shorter barrel, lower speed, wider spread? |
| The Shadow | 01 Jul 2015 7:51 a.m. PST |
Well, from what I've read about shotguns, a longer barrel will certainly increase velocity, but whether there would be a noticeable difference in shot pattern in sawed off shotguns *because* of velocity, I don't know. There has been a *lot* of discussion about that very subject, and the only info that I could take away with any certainty is that sawing off a barrel would remove a fixed choke if one was there, and that would increase the size of the pattern from *that* barrel. I have also read of a test that was made years ago that showed a *very* large pattern out of a *very* short barrel, like 7 inches. But I don't know if it's true, or why that would happen. If you see any hard data that you can share, i'd like to see it myself. :-) |
| The Shadow | 01 Jul 2015 10:05 a.m. PST |
Well guys, a picture is worth a thousand words (or posts). :-) The opinions out there vary so widely that I found myself digging deeper to find out the truth about "sawed off" shotgun patterns. This link is to a youtube video showing shotgun patterns with three different length barrels, all with with no choke, or as it's technically called, a cylinder choke. The stoeger is the shortest, and is what we picture when we think of a gangster "sawed off" shotgun. It has an 11" barrel and the stock is gone except for the grip. And guess what? No appreciable difference in the pattern between a "sawed off" and a 21" barrel at any useful distance. So it's a myth that a "sawed off" will create a larger pattern. However, that doesn't mean that we can't fudge it, and make "sawed off" shotguns more interesting for games. After all, this is "pulp era" fiction, so do whatever you want to. |
| The Shadow | 01 Jul 2015 10:07 a.m. PST |
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| andysyk | 01 Jul 2015 10:38 a.m. PST |
The old TSR BOOT HILL had a shotgun template that was like that of an MMG on steroids you could wipe out half a town with one blast.
Really you still have to aim a shotgun and your targets gonna be one guy. |
| The Shadow | 01 Jul 2015 12:27 p.m. PST |
>>Really you still have to aim a shotgun and your targets gonna be one guy.<< I used to compete in "Cowboy Action" matches and I can say conclusively that you *do* have to aim. |
| jdginaz | 01 Jul 2015 2:09 p.m. PST |
"Not quite true. The wider the pattern the less chance of getting a hit, or a number of hits" Actually it is true the wider the pattern the more likelihood that less shot will hit the target, the les shot hitting the target mean less mass,less mass means,less effect on the target. |
| The Shadow | 01 Jul 2015 8:04 p.m. PST |
>>Actually it is true the wider the pattern the more likelihood that less shot will hit the target, the les shot hitting the target mean less mass,less mass means,less effect on the target.<< That's true, but whether the shot pattern is effective or not really depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the shotgun. A near miss with a pistol or rifle is a hit with 10" spread of buck shot. If you just want to make sure that you get a hit, and two or three .32 hits is nothing to sneeze at, then a good sized spread is a good thing. If you want to demolish your target, a tight pattern will do the job. But that can also be over kill. I didn't want to show photos of shotgun wounds at close range, so i'll tell you this; if the whole load hits a person within about ten feet it will make a hole that you can drop a golf ball into! Seriously! |
| 1968billsfan | 12 Aug 2015 6:42 a.m. PST |
link shows a shotgun blast effect at the range of the front of a storefront |
has been watching some documentaries lately set in the Western Desert, and was inspired to create this...
