"Scots in Swedish service - clothing colour" Topic

Hi Folks,

I'm trying to decide on a colour (or colours) for a Scots regiment in the service of Gustav Adolphus in Germany and would welcome suggestions.

From what I've read Kersey cloth seems likely. Of the cloth issued to Ramsay's regiment in 1629 nearly half was Kersey, but the colour isn't specified for that (or the bulk of the other cloth issued). Mackay's men in 1630 were all issued with "cheap Scottish keysey", again colour unspecified.

It appears the colour of Kersey in other Swedish documents may be blue or grey, however also suggested (by the price) is undyed hodden.

So, blue? (And what sort of blue?) Or a grey? Or hodden? (red-brown / grey).

In any event those who aren't getting Swedish morions are keeping their blue bonnets (so you can tell they're Scots) :) and the command group has a piper (in jacket and trousers – the figures are Warlord Covenanters).

Cheers, Martin

I would think any of those colors would be fine. I have a unit of "fresh of the boat" red shanks in tartan and unbleached linen, one in grey and tewes, and one in blue, gray and proper armor. The longer the unit was in service the more they started to look just like the rest of the Swedish army.

This is a quite interesting article about making clothing for the period. Scroll down and there is an English version of the text for each outfit.

link

Well to Swedish clerks "hodden" cloth would fit into the "grey" category which covered a lot of diffrent shades including undyed cloth. Unfortunately they did not bother with recording the exact shade of gray like some Imperial % Leaugist documents which mention "ash grey", "silver grey" and so on.

The issue to Ramsays regiment included yellow and red cloth for the officers and the regiment had probably been reclothed more than once in Swedish service.
A good chunk of the Scots in Swedish service were ex-Danish troops and at least some of the regiments in Danish service had been well supplied with clothing by King Christian. Unfortunately we have no knowledge of the colours if any of those uniforms.

I'd say that all 3 colours you mention would be good choices with a good deal of fundation in historical fact, the officers should stand out from the men with clothes in diffrent and richer colours.

I certainly understand the lack of uniformity in Swedish uniforms as discovered in my research so far & from various invaluable threads here on TMP.

But I do have a confession. The figures in my Swedish Blue regiment/brigade are nearly all sporting blue coats (& many with blue pantaloons as well). My Red regiment wear reddy-orange coats etc. As do all my infantry units excepting German mercenary units & my Commanded Musket units.

This is one of the compromises I think I need as a wargamer.
Given all the figures in my constantly expanding army will come from 3 manufacturers, a more eclectic range of clothing shades would result in units getting mixed up on the battlefield. Colour is such an easy way of discerning what base belongs with what unit.

I have made a mix of hat & stocking colour as a sop to reality in addition to painting officers & ensigns in a less uniform & more striking fashion. I hope I wont be judged too harshly.

Thank you all for the comments (and the excellent link to period clothing).

Like ochoin I feel the need to balance often rag-tag realism with semi-uniformity to create some visual unit cohesion but want to be at least close enough that the result feels reasonable.

Grey or hodden grey-ish sounds like a good plan, perhaps having a few with brown-ish checked trews too, and I'll spruce up the command group with some better clothes. The grizzled sergeant has a burgonet helm, perhaps he was a reiver at some point in his military career. :)

The grizzled sergeant has a burgonet helm, perhaps he was a reiver at some point in his military career. :)

An Armstrong, an Elliot or a Scott, perhaps. They were a fiercesome crew.

Ochoin,
A lot of Swedish regiments were uniform, The "old" Yellow & Blue regiments were issued with complete uniforms of coat & breeches in "their" colour already in the 1620's. The Red regiment had red uniforms at least in the war with Poland but could have ended up in blue uniforms by the time of Breitenfeld according to one eyewitness account. The Green regiment never seem to have gotten "colour uniforms".

All of the regiments which sailed from Sweden had been issued with new clothing, this included not only native Swedish troops but also Scots in the shape of MacKay's & Spens regiments and Germans in the shape of Falkenberg's Mitschefall's and Knyphausens' regiments. All in all 50 companies.

Based on eyewitness accounts the 1630 issue seems to included a sizeable amount of blue cloth while other regiments were probably dressed in grey based as this was a common colour of the cheapest kersey & "piuk" cloth issued.

Would you happen to know what "piuk" cloth is Daniel S? Google is giving me little other than Brzezinski's Osprey book references to the word. Something to do with a picking stick (i.e. the weaving method) perhaps?

I am thinking that the "Green" regt never got green cloth because of the extra expense of double-dyeing and the fact that green was disliked as a colour for soldiers in Germany. (Perhaps something to do with the fact that it was associated with the Ottomans).

"Piuk"/"Pjuk" and a host of other spellings was a type of wool cloth which originaly was imported from the Netherlands in the 1570's but later on was made in Sweden as well.

Unfortunately we don't know much about the details of this cloth, the troops were usually issued with one of two qualities. Either "kiörpiuk" ("kjörpjuk") or "gement piuk" ("gement"="common")"Kiörpiuk" was the better quality of the two but neither was at the bottom of the quality scale.

Komrad here are my Scots in Swedish service

Sorry for the photo quality

Here's my green Regiment John Hepburn

There were also Scots

Green regiment wasn't composed of Scots, it was made from Prussian troops taken over by Swedes in 1627.

In 1627, he was not just the officers intercepted and replaced and reformed. The wiki Hepburn biography states that his pikinerskuyu a company incorporated in the composition of the regiment. Because his company was part of the 2000 Scots hired Protestants (it's in all sources) at the time of 1629, the regiment was a binational (Gaels and Brandenburg in the lower, Scots and Germans in the chain of command).

The Green regiment was the most junior regiment of the four original Swedish color regiments. It was originally raised from Prussians as part of the feudal obligations of the Duke of Brandenburg to the Polish crown. In 1627, when the regiment was marching to join the Poles, it was intercepted by the Swedes. In Isreal Hoppe's chronicle of the Prussian campaign the following is said to have occurred:
‘Count von Thurn shouted out: "Friends or Enemies?". To which the infantry replied: "Friends!". The count continued: "Then shoulder your muskets!". When this was done, he rode up and said: "Are you the King of Sweden's men?". "Ja, Ja!" they answered'.
Gustavus Adolophus incorporated this regiment into his army, but send the officers back to the Duke of Brandenburg with the comment that he ‘take more care of his men in the future'.
The regiment was first commanded in 1627 by Hans Kasper v. Klitzing. In 1629 command was assumed by John Hepburn. With the command of the regiment by a Scot, it has often been assumed that the entire regiment was Scottish but muster rolls show that it was primarily Prussian.
Under Hepburn, the regiment was part of the Pomeranian campaign (September 1630 to January 1631) and Gustavus's muster against Frankfort-an-der-Oder. Later the regiment fought at Werben (August 1631), Breitenfeld (September 1631), and Lech (April 1632).
After the battle of Lech, command was given to Adam v. Pfuel. Under his command, the regiment fought at Alte Veste (September 1632) and joined Horn's corps after the Swedish defeat at Lutzen. In Horn's corps, the regiment fought at Pfaffenhofen (August 1633) and Nordlingen (September 1634). At Nordlingen, the regiment was brigaded with Baner, Vitzthum and Birkenfeld regiments into Pfuhl's brigade. After the battle, the regiment was combined with the Baner regiment and went north as part of Baner's corps. The regiment disbanded in 1635.

There is nothing in this Wiki link page about Hepburns company being incorporated nor his company being Scottish.
But perhaps you are using a diffrent wiki?

Either way Hepburn's company was not Scottish as it was the former company of Lieutant-Colonel Hans Ludwig von Erlach which originaly was part of the Yellow regiment. Hepburn was given the company when Erlach left Swedish service and the company moved with him when he was promoted to command of the Green regiment.

Dear Daniel C. I did not say that the green regiment – the Scottish. I say that it's been a surprising number of Scots, probably very small. I've been honored Forums night …
In general write about the Prussian regiment prisoner – there were initially seven mouth. How many of them survived to the captivity and fled from the Swedes – is unclear. Accordingly, in my estimation in 1628-29gg. it was 2-3 companies Scots-Irish (version Working Capital flags shamrock) 6-7 mouth Prussians different spills (version Working Capital banners with arrows) and 2-3 other companies vostochnogermantsev and Finno-Estonians.
About uniform writing that is likely gray tones. With shades of whitish-gray, brown-gray, green-gray. Ie local production.
So bright green color only for officers. Several berets. Several of knitted hats for finougrov. Other hats under vostochnonemetskuyu fashion.

Thanks to excellent Swedish records for this period Green regiment is well documented so there is not much unclear about it.

7 companies defected to Swedish service in 1627, the men were never prisoners but simply took their weapons and joined Swedish army mostly led by the same officers as before.

Colonel of the new regiment was Hans Kaspar Klitzing who took with him his own company of German soldiers from the Yellow regiment. First pay in july 1627 was for 8 companies with total of 1195 men. When campaign of 1627 came to an end in september the regiment still had 1138 men with most missing men lost to disease rather than desertion.
September 1627 saw regiment go through some changes, Hepburn and his German company was transfered from Yellow regiment while Brandenburg company of Anders Joschels went to Yellow regiment. So by end of 1627 Green regiment had two German companies from Yellow regiment and six original Brandenburg companies.

At the start of 1628 the Green regiment had 1026 men, by june 6th 1628 regimental strenght was 872 men with the army (not counting sick and detachments) and by November 1628 regiment had total strenght of 701 fit soldiers and 181 sick soldiers. Regiment did not go through any organisational changes in this period so still had only 8 companies. (2 German, 6 Brandenburg)

Following Swedish-Polish truce of Altmark the Green regiment was expanded to 10 companies with local Prussian recruits and German soldiers from Danzig and Polish army who found themselves without a job at the end of the war.
Total of 1361 soldiers from Green regiment went to Germany as part of Swedish invasion force in 1630.

No record of the regiment ever getting troops from Scotland (Hepburn had no recruiters there) or from Livonia/Estonia. (Swedish regiments in those provinces had monopoly of local recruits)

Finno-Estonians?

Here you pass the fork. After the scandal with the famous Hepburn Catholicism last entered the service of France. And went to a substantial portion of the Scots regiment – they were merged with the famous companies of the Royal Scots Guards guards and fought until the end of 1633. Then, apparently, there was a rotation / rearrangement (next, the French branch of the regiment to 1635-37 th), because the history of the English Grey Scot (link with Signia) / Douglas conducted by troops of the Scots, who returned from the continent with Hepburn.
And the network just drawings pikemen
Especially because the bulk of the Scots is discharged into the Prussian ports.

I think that refers to the native Estonians whose language is sometimes called that. However Swedes did not recruit from them during this period except for occasional work parties of temporarily conscripted peasants but even that was rather unpopular with German gentry as well as with the Estonians.

And again, on the Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment)

link

And yet again, that's nothing to do with Green Regiment in Swedish service…

No Scottish troops went from Swedish army with Hepburn after the split between Hepburn and Gustavus Adolphus in 1632. Hepburn returned home alone and raised entirely new regiment for French service begining in April 1633. See "Alexander Leslie and the Scottish Generals of the Thirty Years' War, 1618–1648" by Steve Murdoch and Alexia Grosjean.

You can trace fate of Scottish troops in Swedish service pretty well with the above book and Fallon's 1973 doctoral thesis "Scottish mercenaries in the service of Denmark and Sweden" PDF link

Roayl Scots version at wikipedia is old myth not based on proper research, key misstake is assumption that Hepburn's regiment in Swedish service was Scottish as was "Green brigade" Looking at the source for the wiki entry link it turns out that wiki version is rewritten in a way not supported by the source.

If I read Engerisser correctly, there was a Scottish brigade which distinguished itself at Breitenfeld. However, the Scottish troops were placed in their own regts. The number of these and the commanders' names varied from time to time.

At Breitenfeld, they were Regts Ramsay and Hamilton. By the next spring, There were a total of 4 Scots regts – Spens, MacKay, Ramsay and Leslie. To add to the confusion, they were sometimes commanded by Hepburn and brigaded with the Green Regt.

I am guessing that some of these troops would have been newly recruited and still have elements of Scots clothing. So there is certainly scope to paint Scots fighting for GA; they are just not the Green Regt.

The Breitenfeld brigade was a bit of special case as Gustavus broke up both the the 'true' Scots brigade and the Green brigade when he reformed 8 infantry brigades into 7 just before the battle. So you ended up with a short lived German-Scots brigade before the organisation returned to the previous one.

The four regiments at Breitenfeld: MacKay (Monro's squadron), Lumsden (ex-Spens), Ramsay and Hamilton were only a part of the Scottish troops in Swedish service. There was a large levy of new regiments on the way which would end up landing in Mecklenburg late in 1631. (5 or 6 new regiments) Then you had the allied troops in the Marquis of Hamilton's "English" army which have cause a fair bit of confusion ever since. (4 regiments) So on new years eve the Scots brigade only represented 1/3 or so of the Scottish regiments in Swedish service.

On the whole the "new" Scots lacked the hard won training and experience of the "old" Scots who had been in action since the 1620's. They also suffered from poor equipment and shortages and unlike the "old" regiments had not been reclothed before entering Germany. (MacKay's regiment was probably impossible to identify as Scots by late 1631 since they had gotten re-clothed both in Sweden and Denmark and then again from captured Catholic leauge stores)

So the "new" Scots could perhaps be legitimately painted as wearing bonnets and hodden grey, at the cost of being rated as lower quality troops on the wargames table, I guess.

They would have been reclothed in the course of 1632, I would think. The bonnets might have remained.

Given that most of the "New Scots" were operating with secondary armies and detachments they would have recieved less in the way of support compared to the "Old Scots" who were part of the main army led by Gustavus old styles of dress would have lingered on unless the men were able to loot cloth & clothes or recieve it as contributions.

So those regiments are indeed were one can fully make use of Scots dress. Of course what most gamers want to paint is the famous Scots brigade with the "Old" and pretty much reclothed regiments. But that is a case when even I cheat a fair bit and include a bunch of bonnets and for Swedes vs Poles I even add a couple of bases with men mostly in highland dress as Ramsay's regiment was noted for having several companies dressed in belted plaid in Prussia.

Those are lovely clean paint jobs Militia! I'd be very happy to manage something of that quality. :)

But that is a case when even I cheat a fair bit and include a bunch of bonnets and for Swedes vs Poles I even add a couple of bases with men mostly in highland dress as Ramsay's regiment was noted for having several companies dressed in belted plaid in Prussia.

Interesting. The officers' names are all typical LOWLAND Scots names. At that time, the Highlands would have spoken a different language and had a completely different culture. It would have been like mixing Germans and Frenchmen. Or Walloons and Dutch.

Writing late at night from distant memory caused an error, the regiment in question was not that of Ramsay but rather Meldrum's which began landing in Prussia in 1629 closely followed by Hamilton's regiment. Army lists for the period simply refer to all these units as "Skottar" i.e "Scots" which up to then had been the typical lable for Ramsay's regiment.

The two companies made an impression on the local Germans who found their bonnets and tartan plaid outlandish and not very impressive as it in their eye made them look like comedians or gypsys.

Daniel SI admire your knowledge of teme.Bravo !!! And you have no information on the banners of the Scottish regiments in the Swedish service.In Russia we have little information on TYW have to collect the crumbs.

Mortimer Graves.Thank you for your appreciation of my humble work. I'm just starting my job and I am glad that it is not just like me.

There is a pamphlet with Four 'Irish' mercenaries in Stettin during the Thirty Years War. Possibly Scots of Mackay's Regiment.

MIRROR SITE
Four 'Irish' mercenaries in Stettin during the Thirty Years War

Druzhina
Illustrations of Scottish Costume & Soldiers

Actually it is quite impossible that the famous Stattin print shows MacKay's regiment since the regiment was:
A: Reclothed in uniforms not only by the Swedes before the invasion of Germany but entered Swedish service wearing the clothing issued by the Danes with whom they had previously served.

B: Did not go ashore in Stettin. MacKay's regiment landed on Usedom with the rest of the army apart from Monro's squadron which was shipwrecked at Rügenwalde but made it ashore.

C: The print is dated to 1631 and refers to an event in the 2nd half of the year. However Mackay's regiment had been in Germany for about year by then without sparking any comments about their clothing and the regiment was almost constantly a part of the King's own army operating much further south.

There is however a Scots unit which fits both time, place and probably equipment as well. That is Alexander Hamilton's Scots-Irish regiment which arrived in Stettin with the rest of the so called "English army" led by the Marquis of Hamilton late in the summer of 1631.

Here are my Scottish arteleristy

I also read that it landed at Stettin shelf "Army of Hamilton."