Tango01 | 22 Jun 2015 11:12 a.m. PST |
… Fight For the Confederacy?. "BY THE END of the U.S. Civil War, there were approximately 180,000 African Americans serving in Union uniform. This represented about 10 percent of Lincoln's army. While a good number of these men were citizens of the North, it's been estimated that about half were former slaves who had fled the Confederacy to take up arms against their former oppressors. These so-called "colored soldiers" have often been credited with helping to turn the tide of the war in favour of the Union. Yet astonishingly, not all blacks that took part in the War Between the States fought for the North. African Americans were also involved in the Confederate war effort too. The overwhelming majority were slaves and as such had no choice but to accompany their masters on campaign. A minute number were free men. While, most black Confederates served as stewards, cooks, stable hands or labourers, there is some evidence that suggests at least a few carried rifles and might have even served in battle, either as free volunteers or as pressed men. But determining just how many African Americans actually fought for the Rebellion has touched off a war of sorts in its own right. For the past 15 years, historians, professional and amateur, have debated the issue (often vehemently). Some say it was a statistically insignificant handful, others maintain that it must have been "thousands". Those who believe that scores of African Americans did indeed fight for the South consider it evidence that there was more to the Rebel cause than the defence of slavery — an argument that absolves the Confederacy of what many consider to be a racist heritage…" Full article here link Amicalement Armand |
mwindsorfw | 22 Jun 2015 11:32 a.m. PST |
There is no doubt that slaves were used in logistical support roles. There may have been some former slaves or descendants of former slaves who found sanctuary with Native American tribes (Seminoles, Cherokees) and later fought in CSA regiments as members of those tribes. There also MAY have been a small number of slaves who fought for the promise of freedom, but that doesn't seem like evidence of broad African-American support for the war as much as evidence of desperation and despair. The claim of "thousands" fighting for the CSA isn't supported by any history I've read. |
vtsaogames | 22 Jun 2015 11:50 a.m. PST |
Even if the number is five or six thousand (as some claim), compare that to the 180,000 who fought for the Union. That doesn't absolve the Confederacy. |
Pan Marek | 22 Jun 2015 1:18 p.m. PST |
This argument is a modern invention of far-right Americans seeking to pump up the "state's rights" version of the ACW, for purely modern political reasons. |
markandy | 22 Jun 2015 1:57 p.m. PST |
Yes Pan Marek, a perfect example of the obtuse. I have had forum "debates" over this subject with those whose ability to distort, belie, fabricate, slant, stretch, and twist the historical record is Goebbelian in its scope and fervor. |
Grunt1861 | 22 Jun 2015 1:59 p.m. PST |
There were many Jewish people who actively worked for the Nazis at the Death Camps sending my relatives to their deaths. No they were not volunteers, (not really). Yes, they did what they had to to stay alive. As horrifying and reprehensible as it was, they did what they were forced to do. |
jpattern2 | 22 Jun 2015 3:54 p.m. PST |
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jpattern2 | 22 Jun 2015 3:55 p.m. PST |
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Greylegion | 22 Jun 2015 6:21 p.m. PST |
I did a paper on this in college. You have to dig but you can find documented events of slaves on the front line and "fighting" against Union troops. If for no other reason than to possibly better their condition or position, should the south have won the war. In some documented letters home, some southern officers, wrote home of how their servants organized and helped fight. One incident, in a letter home, told of a negro that was voted into a unit as he was deemed trustworthy and well liked by the men. It seems that in every war, we have people cross the line to secure their survival, in one form or another. It happened then and it happens today. Look at Iraq. |
Dan Cyr | 22 Jun 2015 9:27 p.m. PST |
Try and find one (1) record of a slave who "fought"for the Confederacy and was given a pension as a "soldier" after the war by any southern state. Lots of camp servants, lots of wagoners, lots of body slaves, etc., no "soldiers". Easy to find a number of blacks who attempted to "pass", that enlisted, were exposed and thrown out of the army. Do a search here on TMP and you can find attempts to promote this hoax. Dan |
The Virtual Armchair General | 22 Jun 2015 10:35 p.m. PST |
When engaged as a civilian war correspondent in my Re-enactment days here in Indian Territory, a Black Gentleman (a State employee, as I recall) lectured us on the free blacks as well as slaves who enlisted with the Confederacy. I also met another Black Gentleman serving in a Confederate unit who was his "Master's" personal Butler, and whose persona spoke proudly of serving so fine a Gentleman. At least some Free Blacks who owned property and businesses in the South evidently feared a change in the status quo, and were willing to risk their lives--if not necessarily their freedom--to fight for it. Understand, politically I am and always shall be a "Yankee," and hanging at least some slavers would have been an entertainment to me had I been there, but if anyone here believes there is only ONE TRUTH, without shading or nuance, he has bought into an oversimplification. Self righteousness is never "righteous," and I'm starting to hear those tones in some replies here. A little humility would serve us all well in what is still a painful argument a century and a half later. TVAG |
Dn Jackson | 23 Jun 2015 4:48 a.m. PST |
I don't understand the argument that no blacks fought for the south. There were free blacks in the south, there were free blacks who owned slaves in the south. Why is it so difficult to believe that some of those free blacks were willing to fight for their homes? Certainly the Union newspapers believed it at the time as there are drawings of blacks in Confederate uniform as well as blacks photographed in Confederate uniform, though it appears most of those are servants in the uniforms of their master's units. I have no doubt that there were a handful of blacks who fought for the south, I estimated it at about 1,000 in all of the ANV over the four years of its existence, which is miniscule compared to the 180,000 that fought for the north. Why do some people find this so offensive? |
Inkpaduta | 23 Jun 2015 10:24 a.m. PST |
One has to be really careful with this topic. It can have political agenda written all over it. It has been used lately to try and show that Blacks in the South also supported the Confederacy thus the war really wasn't about slavery but State Rights and home instead. If any Southern Blacks did take up a gun and fight they did it in very small numbers. We have no record of if they did it as no serious evidence can be found that they ever did. The main thing about this question this that it in no way changes the fact that southern states seceded over the issue of preserving slavery. |
15th Hussar | 23 Jun 2015 11:46 a.m. PST |
There was, allegedly, a small battalion of (Freed?) blacks who surrendered w/Lee at Appomattox. Cleburne lost whatever support he had during the winter of 1864 for daring to propose raising a army corps worth of black troops. So, one small experiment and one grand design…tis all I know of. |
markandy | 23 Jun 2015 7:35 p.m. PST |
TVAG…if this conversation was ever about the historical record then you might be on to something. The conversation has never been a proper footnote (which is all that it ought to be) but rather what neo-confederates would use as a gotcha "fact" to further a tired and distasteful worldview. Frankly, to believe otherwise is either naive or disingenuous. IMHO of course… |
Murphy | 24 Jun 2015 5:22 a.m. PST |
Tango….IIRC, you brought this same discussion up about 2 years ago…. |
Murphy | 24 Jun 2015 6:52 a.m. PST |
Try and find one (1) record of a slave who "fought"for the Confederacy and was given a pension as a "soldier" after the war by any southern state. Kind of a trick question Dan as if you go back and look, the pension forms that blacks used didn't list them as "soldiers". Mississippi is the only state that on it's pension form for "coloreds/blacks" even asks if they served in a battle, or were wounded. |
Dan Cyr | 24 Jun 2015 8:16 a.m. PST |
Guess then that you answered the question, Murphy. Dan |
Murphy | 24 Jun 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
Guess then that you answered the question, Murphy. Then I guess the black confederate POW's buried at Crown Hill Cemetery were just "honored guests" then Dan?…. |
rooter | 24 Jun 2015 11:45 a.m. PST |
well I guess it's not enough blacks in gray to use as an excuse to paint a new CS unit…really I can't imagine any black person enthusiasticly fighting for the south. It is very interesting indeed that some thought they stood more to lose with a southern defeat. If people are trying to use this info to say that the CSA couldn't be racist well it's a pretty thin argument. Although by today's standards both sides were racist. I'm just waiting for the inevitable. Someone, in the name of progress will claim wargaming the civil war is inherently racist. All those little rebel flags and someone has to play the southern side after all… |
Dan Cyr | 27 Jun 2015 9:07 a.m. PST |
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Dan Cyr | 27 Jun 2015 9:12 a.m. PST |
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Dan Cyr | 27 Jun 2015 9:14 a.m. PST |
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jpattern2 | 27 Jun 2015 12:15 p.m. PST |
The link so nice, he posted it thrice. |
Oh Bugger | 28 Jun 2015 11:02 a.m. PST |
Is this the third time we have done this or the fourth? |
Dan Cyr | 30 Jun 2015 1:06 p.m. PST |
That was my point, Oh (smile). Comes up every few years, gets whacked, lays low until a couple of years go by, then rises in an attempt to fool folks once more. Got tired of stomping on it, so just links from now on. Dan |
Tango01 | 30 Jun 2015 10:45 p.m. PST |
The article is not the same one. If people still write about that theme… seems to be of possible interest… So, same here… saw the amount of comments. In every period of war there are repeated theme threads… How many have you read about Waterloo… Stalingrad… or Gettysburg to mention a few ones.? If you are not interested in the theme… well avoid it! Impossible to be more simple!. Amicalement Armand |