KTravlos | 17 Jun 2015 5:56 a.m. PST |
Another flareup in the TMP Plus science part. Here is what. When you have two sides contesting over an issue that do not agree at common evidentery standards, you are not having a debate. You are having a shouting match.And those are pointless except as entertainment for the foolish. So what do you do when you are in such a situation? 1) You walk away and ignore them. The issue will not be resolved by debate as there is no common evidentery standards accepted by both sides. Ignore the topics started by partisans of the other side. Indeed ignore enough and people will probably stop starting topics because partisans thrive in conflict. 2) If you really feel for this issue, if you believe that the advocacy of the other side is threatening your life and livelihood. Then Fight. And not these lame flame internet wars. I mean actually wage violent conflict and kill/subjugate the other side. Fear of violence is the only common evidentery standard to all human beings. We can all decide an issue by pummeling the other side into oblivion or submission. Indeed in most of history when you had polities meet that did not share any common criteria of evaluation the result was war. Once interaction lasted long enough for common criteria of evaluation to arise (law, trade or other regimes), people tended to choose those over war. This is not the case. So fight. 3) If the society you live in has replaced violent struggle by majoritarianism then out-vote the other side. If partisans of the other side are not in positions of power then they cannot harm you. Voting was first developed as an alternative to the use of force on the logic that the majority would win a war anyway so let us skip that phase. In most places in the world it is the prejudices of the majority, true or false, fair or not, that become law. So vote for your prejudices. 4) Or act like adults and sit down and negotiate common evidentary standards before entering debate. Sit down and discuss what each of you would accept as evidence. See if you have common ones. If so HUZZAHH! You can have a debate. If not choose options 1 to 3. When I do political science I seldom enter into debates with post-positivists or classical tradition practitioners. Why? Because they reject my evidentery standards and I reject theirs. Thus we cannot have debate. If we must, we first lay out what we would count as supportive or falsifying evidence and then discuss. A properly written research design is very clear on what will lead you to reject your own hypotheses. So there. All this meaningless verbiage is useless. Either do 4) and make it actually useful, or choose 1) and let us enjoy TMP without childish spats of the magnitude of "my dad is cooler than yours" With Respect KTravlos PS: Yes I am violating 1). Shame on me. |
Mr Elmo | 17 Jun 2015 6:42 a.m. PST |
So what do you do when you are in such a situation? Once I realize people aren't interested in a substantive debate (which is almost always) I generally walk away. There's no use trying to argue with an idiot: they beat you with experience. The exchange usually goes something like this: Elmo: "actually inflation adjusted income in RTW states has increased 12%" FI*: Big corporations are bad! Elmo: (noting no attempt to argue the point) "Goodbye" * FI = Future Idiot |
ACWBill | 17 Jun 2015 7:17 a.m. PST |
The phrase "agree to disagree" is often best employed in this situation. B |
Murphy | 17 Jun 2015 8:17 a.m. PST |
This is the internets damnit!!!! We're supposed to get upset and irrational!!!! |
RavenscraftCybernetics | 17 Jun 2015 8:19 a.m. PST |
AND USE ALL CAPS TO MAKE OUR POINTS!!! |
Toronto48 | 17 Jun 2015 9:07 a.m. PST |
I don't argue as I am just explaining why I am right |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 17 Jun 2015 9:07 a.m. PST |
ACWBill has it right. If you cannot just ignore it. |
ochoin | 17 Jun 2015 9:36 a.m. PST |
Or by only use lower case to show the barely contained fury behind our posts and by eschewing punctuation underline the depths of our dearly held opinions |
Cerdic | 17 Jun 2015 9:55 a.m. PST |
"…is this the right room for an arguement?" |
Dynaman8789 | 17 Jun 2015 10:36 a.m. PST |
> Elmo: "actually inflation adjusted income in RTW states has increased 12%" Only makes sense if we are told the starting income. 12% more of 50% to begin with being a "lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" kind of thing. 12% more if they income was even is another matter. Usually this comes about when a study shows that doing X increases your chance of a disease by 50%, but if you original chance was 1% to begin with… |
KTravlos | 17 Jun 2015 10:53 a.m. PST |
Terrament I do not give a coin about what you post or do not. But unlike you I do not believe your opponents are doing this for the fun of a meaningless fight. Yes, I know that just like there are violence-junkies in the world, there are also people who love to argue for no other point than to argue. Argument junkies. If as you say your opposition is like you in that, then fine, they will ignore this and continue fighting with you for the heck of it. But I bet they are not. I bet they actually think they are engaged in a debate. They are not. So this is advice to them. They cannot debate with you, and you cannot debate with them. You are from different worlds. Different worldviews, different epistimological paradigms. It will lead to nothing. Just like those theist-atheist debates about the existence of God. They should ignore you. You can post all the things in the world you want as long as Bill is ok, but as you say they can ignore you. You can post on Daytona and the evil liberals who are trying to take it down. You can repost George Will columns from NRO about how evil Liberals are. You can post about how awesome it is to be a conservative. You can post the Nicean creed. I do not give coin. But I do have the right, to advise people to ignore those posts. You want to call it arrogant. Sure. Go for it. I am arrogant person. My blood is that of minor venetian nobility, I worked my ass off to come where I am, I am the first PhD in my family, and I am arrogant as hell. Sure the argument-junkies will still post. That is their problem and their time. People can always dig holes in water. But those who are not, those who earnestly enrage in this thinking they are having a debate that can lead to any conclusion. Those are wasting their time. I do not like seeing earnest people wasting their time.I am not forcing them to ignore you. I am advising them to do so. And frankly this is not just about you, though your fracas have brought it about. There are plenty of cases in the UM modern board that also produce this. And no I am not stifling you or ignoring you. This is a site for me as much as it is for you and I will not cut myself off from it to satisfy your "me right or wrong attitude". This is my community as much as it is yours and no I do not have to shut up, ignore and whistle when parts of my community are burning. So there you go. |
Mako11 | 17 Jun 2015 12:45 p.m. PST |
"Inflation adjusted income" – boy, that's a loaded, misleading term. "Inflation adjusted income" excludes the prices of food, energy (granted, oil is down a bit from it's 100% price increase, but gasoline is only down about 25% off the highs of a little over a year ago, but energy to power your home is way up), and housing, which have all increased way beyond the reported inflation rate, so aren't included in the calculations, since they are "too volatile". The prices for meats, poultry, fish, vegetables, fruits, and many other food items are way up, having doubled, or tripled in many cases, in the last few years. A lot of that has to do with printing money to prop up the stock market, too. Home rental prices are spiking in many areas. In CA, a person earning the minimum wage needs to work 92 hours to pay for a rental apartment, and the minimum wage would need to go up to almost $27 USD an hour to be able to afford one on 40 hours a week. Living in NY costs almost as much. It's much the same in many other states too. I guess it is comforting that if you have any money left over after the above, you can buy clothing for a reasonable price. |
platypus01au | 17 Jun 2015 12:46 p.m. PST |
My advice is to talk only of Miniature Wargames and ignore everything else. While I like to discus science, religion and politics, I believe it should only be done face-to-face over an open fire with a bottle of port. Glasses optional. JohnG |
Dynaman8789 | 17 Jun 2015 1:22 p.m. PST |
> My advice is to talk only of Miniature Wargames and ignore everything else. HERETIC!!! |
tberry7403 | 17 Jun 2015 1:50 p.m. PST |
Must be a Frother. |
jdpintex | 17 Jun 2015 3:47 p.m. PST |
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138SquadronRAF | 17 Jun 2015 5:06 p.m. PST |
There are two topics on the science boards that create problems: (1) Evolution, be it in relation to changes over time or abiogenesis. (2) Climate change. The former has always been a problem with a small but vocal minority here. The latter has developed as a problem. There is frequent but not total overlap between the groups. My reaction is now to largely ignore the creationists when they come out from under the bridge as they are not open to evidence. I've too many friends and family members who are biologists to have any sympathy with them. |
KTravlos | 17 Jun 2015 10:18 p.m. PST |
It seems that anything of usefullnes by me that could be said has been said. It also seems I have offended Terrament. I apologise. We will not interact again sir. Tis for the best. |
KTravlos | 18 Jun 2015 5:50 a.m. PST |
My education and blood line explain my arrogance. I might not be a able to spell but many people seem unable to read. " I do not give coin. But I do have the right, to advise people to ignore those posts. You want to call it arrogant. You want to call it arrogant. Sure. Go for it. I am arrogant person. My blood is that of minor venetian nobility, I worked my ass off to come where I am, I am the first PhD in my family, and I am arrogant as hell." Where did I "puts on airs of knowing everything because one has a particular qualification."? I am quite clear my behavior is arrogant. But I do know one thing very well and that is intractable conflicts. I will call them when I see them. "And what on earth does someone's education level or perceived royalty have to do with your advice? Do they make one better than others? Do they make one's arguments somehow more valid than other folks here?" Explain to me where in the phrase I quoted above did I say my education or bloodline make me better than others? Arrogant. Yes. Better than others? Forgive me but I must have mispelled a lot of words to have said I am better than you,rather than that I am arrogant. Also minor venetian colonial nobility is not royalty. Its the equivalent of a Rechsritter or English country squire. Royalty its not. "However I know many people with your level of education in arts like poli sci, philosophy, and others in archaeology and biology who enjoy argument for the sake of argument." I know them as well. I avoid them when discussing work. No common grounds of evidentary standards=/= no use for work.
"I'm very disappointed to learn your PhD is in political science after another post you made regarding science. " Terribly sorry to disappoint you. Are you disappointed I am a political scientist (i.e research design and epistemology courses are irrelevant?). Or are you disappointed I chide people for having irrelevant fights in a site dedicated to wargaming? Or are you disappointed at my self-ware arrogance (which has nothing to do with the topic of my degree or what not)? As for feeling insecure. Sure I am, on many issues. That does not change the fact that what I say on debates is correct. They are not synonyms with arguments. A debate resolves a question. A argument does not. To resolve a question you must agree to a common ground of evidence. Arguing requires that not. By I am obviously putting airs on this. |
KTravlos | 18 Jun 2015 5:51 a.m. PST |
Here you go, an appropriate image for me putting on airs
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ACWBill | 18 Jun 2015 6:29 a.m. PST |
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DS6151 | 18 Jun 2015 8:51 a.m. PST |
Forgive me but I must have mispelled a lot of words to have said I am better than you,rather than that I am arrogant. I do not think that word means what you think it means. |
Choctaw | 18 Jun 2015 9:32 a.m. PST |
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KTravlos | 18 Jun 2015 10:23 a.m. PST |
I see what must be done. I apologize for telling people to ignore posts I apologize for thinking I am superior to people I apologize for making suggestions to people about what to do with their time I apologize for thinking I know what is better for others than what they think I apologize for imposing on other members of TMP my inane dialogue or whine fest or whatever. Inflicting it on them was wrong and stupid. I apologize for my arrogance. I have shamed and dis-honored myself, my discipline, and my education. It is quite evident that I have lost completely my self-discipline and that greatly impairs my ability to enjoy this site. Until such a time as it is rebuilt, it would be wise to not be able to post or start topics. Any decision is mine alone and made of free will and not due to any actions of other members of TMP. |
Gone Fishing | 18 Jun 2015 12:13 p.m. PST |
My dear fellow, don't be too down on yourself. I think everyone on this or any other forum knows how easy it is to get oneself in trouble with internet discussions, so remember you're not alone with this. My recommendation? Take a nice walk outdoors, or, if you're so inclined, spend some time with animals. It sounds silly, but their great virtue is that however down at the heels we may be or stupid or frightening the world may seem at times, they remain delightfully unconcerned regarding what mistakes we may or may not have made in life. They can be very therapeutic, really. Pottering about with toy soldiers isn't such a bad idea either. Then, when you're ready, come back refreshed and know you've been missed. |
Robert Kennedy | 18 Jun 2015 4:52 p.m. PST |
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Mardaddy | 18 Jun 2015 9:12 p.m. PST |
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jpattern2 | 19 Jun 2015 7:53 a.m. PST |
Can I get a Triple-Plus-Meh? |
Legion 4 | 20 Jun 2015 6:10 a.m. PST |
"Learn to ignore" I have … that is why I won't comment on this thread … |