"30 Years' War French Cavalry Standards" Topic

Does anyone know a good source for 25/28 mm French cavalry standards for the 30 Years' War?

Kevin

I wish I did.

I know that later on (WSS), they had intricately painted scenes – exploding cannon balls, etc – and they never had the white cross that the infantry carried.

But I have no idea for the 30 YW period.

I am also striking out on any attempt to find the Spanish.

Hugh,

It sounds like your research has led you to the same conclusion that mine has. Information is nearly impossible to find on the subject. Thion's book, French Armies of the Thirty Years' War, does have four pictures of some cavalry standard -- but that is it, and I can not find a manufacturer that produces any of these. I guess I will end up trying to paint these myself.

Kevin

I will check Thion's book myself again.

I know that certain themes come up time and again in painted German cavalry standards – Fortuna Riding a Cannonball, St George Slaying the Dragon, a Riding Cavalryman, an arm coming out of a cloud swiping with a sword. One of these themes would seem a good choice.

But it's total guesswork on my part.

Have a look also at Thion's De Rohan a Turenne blog – particularly link

Just found this: My Tin Soldier Collection -TYW
mtsc-imp.blogspot.com

Kevin, I checked Thion and was a little dubious. 4 of the standards simply show the proprietors coats of arms. I am dubious that this was still the practice in this period.

The two pictures at the top of the page look a lot more likely and are similar to the WSS period flags. But they are slightly out of period (later) and are garde units. So it still doesn't help for the run of the mill cavalry regt.

But the little flags in the 1629 and 1630 paintings at link do look heraldic – though they are too small to be really sure.

But the little flags in the 1629 and 1630 paintings at link do look heraldic – though they are too small to be really sure.

They are pretty small. It may be that they are just fictional representations and the painter did not trouble to try and paint accurate flags when they are not significant in the painting as a whole.

"4 of the standards simply show the proprietors coats of arms. I am dubious that this was still the practice in this period."

It was a common practice even as late as the SYW.

dbf, I would be (genuinely) interested if you have examples of French cavalry standards from the 7YW which show the proprietors' coat of arms.

I am interested in getting as many leads and ideas as possible on this difficult topic.

huevans

Have you seen this book:
link

It has drawings of the flags and standards of the French Army for 1771. Most would have been the same for most of the 18th Century. Many cavalry standards do have a proprietors' coat of arms.

Cliff

I've looked out Neil Danskin's "The French Army in the Thirty Years War" (Pallas Armata, 1993). After noting the paucity of evidence for cavalry colours, he says that the following are known – but unfortunately, without hinting what his sources were:

Gendarmes de la Reine, 1643 Crimson with silver embroidery and fringe. Obverse with royal crown and monogram M.A. Reverse with motto "A COEUR VAILLANT RIEN D'IMPOSSIBLE".

Gendarmes d'Orleans 1647 Scarlet with gold fringe and embroidery. An octagonal escutcheon bearing a pastoral scene in natural colours, with a large bomb with lit fuse superimposed. Scroll bearing the motto "ALTER POST FULMINA TERROR".

Colonel-General 1635 Cornette blanche – white with a silver fringe.

Du Roy 1646 Blue with gold fringe and embroidery. Sun in centre, with a fleur-de-lys in each corner. Reverse sown with fleurs-de-lys.

Royal 1643 Blue with silver fringe and embroidery. Obverse and reverse with central sun. Field sown with gold fleurs-de-lys.

Dates may be those of the regiments' founding, not of the flags? Unfortunately, the Orleans example at least looks as if it is actually an 18th-century colour – link – so these may not be trustworthy.

@ GurKan: The design may date from the 1600's. There are some Imperialist flags which also feature painted scenes in a central framed area like this one.

We know so little about French cavalry standards that it is difficult to draw any conclusions.

Did the regts stick with 1 design from founding?

The Sun is the characteristic symbol of Louis XIV and probably was adopted when he was a young man. This would be a decade or so after this range of dates however. In the 1640's, he was still a child.

This is the 18th Century version of "colonel-General". It looks like it has the Turenne coat of arms. The description given above is different.

Just checking other entries in the website you supplied, the dates do seem to be foundation dates for the respective regts.

There are also some differences for La Reine. So I am guessing the descriptions are of the 1640's designs.

Danskin's description refers to the "cornette blanche"/white colonels colour a diffrent regiment, that of Louis-Emmanuel de Valois-Angoulême Comte d'Alais who was colonel-general of the cavalry 1626 to 1653.
The SYW version of "Colonel-General" carried a white colonels colour that was quite similar to that from 1635, the only addition is the golden sun

This suggests that there is a possiblity that Turenne kept using the cornette blance granted the Colonel-General of the cavalry when the title passed to him and his regiment.

Daniel – or anyone else – was there a practice in the 1640's of the colonel's colour in French cavalry regts being all white, like that of infantry regts?

@GurKhan:

If you check out the designs for the Protestant cavalry flags in the painting of the Battle of Fleurus, they seem to be the same patterns as the paintings of the French cavalry flags.

So the issue is whether they are some sort of generic "design" that the painters plugged in if they didn't really know what they were painting.

link