"Does TMP Have a Snarkiness Problem?" Topic

Writing in another topic, Otto commented:

Most of the frequent posters on TMP are just here to be nasty to other people and uncivil to them because that's what they like to do and it's far easier to do so over presentist politics and political affiliations than the color of Confederate butternut or How to form a kampfgruppe in WWII. Though, if you look back on those old lists you can see the same people doing it with the same level of personal attack and vitriol. There's hordes and scads of other sites to do this on, but they just like being mean to people so they do it here too.

Does TMP have a general problem with nasty/snarky posts, and if so, what is the best solution?

Doubting its a TMP problem, its a new on-line problem.

Yes.

Nuke the entire planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure…..

I see more and more rude comments imbedded in otherwise helpful threads. A good deal of the time it seems that individuals want to impress others with what they consider to be amazing wit. I picture some who sit at their monitor laughing at their own comments and patting themselves on the back. I, like most, ignore it and move on.

I've found the majority of posters here to be extremely helpful, informative and willing to share their knowledge with a numbskull like me without a second thought. I think it is human nature to remember the few who are snarky and forget the vast numbers who are plain, decent human beings.

I have never noticed anybody to be snarky or rude.
There is some light ribbing I'm sure but never have I been the recipient of any.
I believe that if there is anybody being what is perceived to be rude one must remember that quite a few people on this site actually know each other and what you may view as rude is actually two friends just having fun with each other.

@britishlinescarlet2,
+1

It's the snarky posts that are remembered, because they go against the grain.

Bill, you can't undo some people's human nature!

+2 to that.

There's always an undercurrent of people who have to either:

*Assert how much superior they are (on a forum about toy soldiers)

*Sneak in a quip about their political beliefs.

Gulag for both.

IŽll add a +3 as well.

There seems to be a small core of members who are making with the negative vibes, but otherwise most people here are quite nice.

As a matter of course, no. Are there are few? Probably. The real question is how to "enforce" civility on those who've never learned it. AND, it's not a TMP unique problem, as my faculty colleagues still teaching report a rise of incivility in the college classroom.

Years ago, John Campbell wrote an editorial in Analog about citizens and barbarians. We're seeing the rise of the barbarians.

Look on the Internet at the number of times when vicious comments towards perfectly innocent people – or, in many cases, victims of something – cause a great deal of distress. It's getting to be considered so common that it's almost an expected response from a (usually anonymous) type of rather sad person.

Why should we expect TMP be any different?

I really think it's an online thing, not a TMP thing. The forums, FaceBook groups, and in-game chat for World of Warcraft is ten times, if not a hundred times worse. I find TMP to be highly useful and mostly friendly. And I post some pretty weird stuff sometimes.

Look on the Internet at the number of times when vicious comments towards perfectly innocent people – or, in many cases, victims of something

Very astute comment!

Comparatively, no. It's not completely snark free but generally much nicer than most gaming and other special interest sites I frequent.

As has already been said, the snarky comments are notable. Therefore they are more memorable than some the other comments. I wouldn't spend much time worrying about this. The only way to overcome human nature involves extinction. It's just not that bad a problem…

I have been the subject of snide and rude comments on this forum. I have also been snide and rude. Thankfully, it was all within two related threads. For my part I realised my comments were becoming unacceptable and apologised unreservedly to the other side. This was a while ago.

I think the problem comes from self appointed experts. And in the threads I refer to I saw myself as one and so I think did the other party. Since then I've tried to listen more and recognise that no-one can possibly know all there is to know.

Its not confined to this forum. I had a run in with someone on Facebook just after the recent election in Britain. He had strong views on how to 'fix' things due to his 'experience' and he strongly said anyone who disagreed was wrong. I said he was entitled to his opinion but I had a different one due to my 'experience'. I told him what my experience was and he shut up.

In answer to your question. Generally, I don't think there is a problem. Most of the time if I ask a question I get well thought out considerate responses. I now treat any that definitively say 'X is what happened' with a pinch of salt.

My view is there is no easy answer to the 'problem'. There needs to be moderation on this site but the solution is to try and respect others views.

Since my experience I've tried to become more tolerant – how many more to go ?

Finally, in my experience the vast majority of people on this site are superb. I asked a question today about a subject I was interested in but know little about and got some well thought-out, informative replies.

In ancient times, they were also complaining that kids were too rude. It's not a question of the time, it's a question that when people see a hostile tone, they tend to mimic it.

There is a fair bit of snark here.

More than what is good. Many do not feel at all welcome, and avoid the forums, which is sad.
Discussion suffers.

(Ordinarily this is where a bunch of people will step in and say that the place is better without those touchy whingers anyhow…. which sort of proves the point.)

Does this mean that this is a particularly bad forum with terrible amounts of snark?
No, of course not, there are many places online that are worse. (And Youtube sort of raises the bar.)
Is there room for improvements? Of course there is.

There are many forums that are better and friendlier, and more open to newcomers and passers-by.

Is there a good way to stop it? Friendly but sometimes heavy handed moderation. Study how the moderation at RPG.net is done, that is a friendly place with plenty of good discussions.

Sarcasm is not the problem.

Stupid people are the problem:

And that gentlemen is why I'm one of the most stifled members of TMP.

Nope

There is the whole little intra-site snark-war going on that is a distraction. I gather that most of the internalized snarking is found at the ultra modern board, and I ignore that. Which is a shame because I think it would make for some interesting military discussions. But I suspect that is too much to hope fore that the issues of the day won't creep in.

Not that I've noticed. TMP is very tame compared to the comments sections of all the news web sites I visit regularly.

There is a difference between snark and mastiness. Snark implies some knowledge or understanding that others lack. I think it's to be expected in a site like this which caters to a certain hobby "geekiness" (and I embrace this term in most affectionate manner) with its own language, knowledge and understanding. As in I know more than you do about the 10th road wheel on a King Tiger.

What I really don't like, and though it occurs infrequently but too often, is the nastiness and meanness I occasionally encounter, and the unwillingess of the editor to consistently enforce his own rules.

Is there a tenth road wheel on a King Tiger? :)

Sorry, that was snark. ;)

I think it is because of this: link

There is some insecurity that breeds snark, especially when we are talking about grown men playing with toy soldiers.

That being said, the atmosphere here was worse 10 years ago, when a simple question could get you a lecture on your inability to read.

So yes, it's there, but not as bad as it used to be. I think that the newer generation of gamers is more pleasant on the whole than the old-timers were. And I'm one of the old guys.

"I think it is human nature to remember the few who are snarky and forget the vast numbers who are plain, decent human beings."

Agreed! nicely put britishlinescarlet2

I agree with 14bore and Garrison … I was amazed to hear of the comments etc. that was being said about members here on TMP from F/Pot. As Garrison said

that it's almost an expected response from a (usually anonymous) type of rather sad person

We're on a site about toy soldiers. There should be little to no vitriol, dessension, etc. … Save for disagreeing with what color you painted something etc. …

I do get irritated with people who, when you post a question, decide that you must not know what you're talking about and give ridiculous answers that are obviously wrong based on the information you presented in the question. And I do get snarky with them, because based on my question I obviously know the difference between their answer and my question, but apparently they don't.

"Does TMP have a general problem with nasty/snarky posts,"

Yes, it does.

"and if so, what is the best solution?"

Consistent application in moderation, however wearisome it might be. STAY ON TOPIC. Personally I am only interested in hobby related issues, not social or political anything. If you are going to go into the social and political message board business, moderation will have to be much more vigilant and consistent. I don't know why you borrow the trouble opening up the barely relevant if at all relevant issues which have scant bearing on miniatures or miniature gaming.

The atmosphere here compared to the early days is quite acrid. That is also reflected in some other completely unrelated sites I keep up with as well, so the problem may be more generally cultural or social, was we communicate more and more at arms length.

See Online Disinhibition:
link
link
link

The problem is not just an emerging area of technological ability and how to use it constructively. Holding people to a minimum level of honesty and courtesy is an emerging area of law as well. It hasn't made the headlines, but court clerks and reporters are seeing more and more of it. I promise you, actions to punish defamation, stalking, etc. as defined in the past will be making its way into the online world as well, as it should.

is TMP snarky? yes
Is it a problem? no

I don't find it any different from any other gaming communities I've been involved with.

As my name has been taken in vain, I have to point out one thing at this point.

It goes to tone. Specifically the type of "tone" Bill is attempting to achieve here.

On my Society of Daisy group, a group dedicated to humor, whimsy, satire, and humor in war gaming, and to Imaginary Nations or Imagi-Nations, the TONE I want to set- and largely succeed at is that of a down-at-the heels gentlemen's club, or perhaps, a group of gamers in a basement group around a table-- of course without the table.

Comments from blue language to mild-joshing in my group are just fine

If you can see a comment passing in your basement group then it's fine. If not, then you should no more make it here than you would in your basement group.

As I also believe I said in one post, we have in my "basement group" (actually my huge living room group) we game in my 16 x 32' living room) wildly left leaning and right leaning gamers on the extreme end. Neither descends to the gratuitous nastiness would-be holders of those beliefs do here.

It's one thing stating your beliefs, it's another thing attacking someone elses, or more usually their nature.

Most of the frequent posters on the inflammatory Early Modern and TMP board only show up on the regular war game boards to trash, quip, or comment on work others do. Few offer new content of their own.

To reiterate. If you're just fine with a comment in your basement group, that's fine. But when you attack someone, expect a response.

Are there members here who are snarky? Yup. There are some posters that seem to be very much so.and they just can't seem to help it. Especially on certain subjects. But it isn't a trait of most of the posters here. Do I think it's a major problem? Nope. I have seen them come and go in the over 10 years I have been here and I just either put them on Stifle or just don't read their comments. I have seen worst forums then here.

Robert

And that gentlemen is why I'm one of the most stifled members of TMP.

That's not the reason.

Trebian's excellent post (7 June at 1.33 am) says it all.
If we were all more like Dilbert and less like the guy in the yellow shirt there would be no problem at all.

According to some, I am far more unpleasant in person.

Some would never say the things they do if they were face to face and not on the otherside of the web. Plus being anonymous …

"Plus being anonymous"…….I really think we should leave a person's religion out of this.

87))

Re: Dilbert

I get that he's nicer than the people around him but isn't he anti-social and borderline autistic?

If we have to use comic characters to emulate, I'd prefer Hagar the Horrible.

Thats fine Ochoin. I meant Dilbert in that specific comic strip rather the yellow shirt guy. If it was Hagar in the comic strip wouldn't he plant an axe in yellow shirts forehead?

I've no idea what a snark is. Though I do vaguely remember reading something about someone hunting one…

@Aubrey

I see your point. And I guess battle axing someone might be seen as anti-social too!

I'm never "Anonymous".

Robert

I see your point. And I guess battle axing someone might be seen as anti-social too!

I better be careful … just mentioning a weapon of any kind could get me back in the DH !

Sarcasm was kind of cute back when it wasn't the default approach to everything online.

The ego is a very tricky thing.
It gets riled up when we feel we know better.
I turns nasty when we feel we are not heard, recognized or respected.
It rebels vociferously when we have been made wrong, or made to feel less than others.
It attacks when attacked.

Does this happen on TMP? Yes, sometimes.
Does it matter? Yes, sometimes.
Does the Editor step in when necessary? Yes, sometimes.

Is this website any worse than many others on the World Wide Interweb? Not really.

Now who really wore Bricoles?
And what color were the Prussian 1813 Reserve infantry canteens?

And that gentlemen is why I'm one of the most stifled members of TMP

I don't suppose you are.