"Struggling with choice of rules" Topic

So, I'll be solo 20mm skirmish ww2 gaming. Perfer 2-3 platoons and 2-3 vehicles on each side.

I'm looking for rules that handle infantry well, but also deal with armor with some chrome. Meaning, I don't mind charts, looking up gun tables/penetration tables (since there aren't many units on the map, I don't mind the extra leg work, but I also do not want to be flipping through pages and pages of charts).

I've done a lot of reviewing here and online and I've got a few rules that seem interesting.

Chain of Command….not sure how good the armor rules are
Disposable Heroes…..I hear the armor rules are so/so
Face of Battle….can't seem to find much detail on this
Battleground WW2…I've heard they're good, but no details
Jagdpanzer….heard they have meaty armor rules, but I've found no examples online
Mein Panzer….heard this game is more suited for larger fights, but has good armor rules
Battlegroup Kursk….good armor rules, but not really suited for solo play

Can anyone chime in and give me a link to some of these rules that I have little to no info on? (mainly Jagdpanzer and Mein Panzer)

I've made a couple similar posts, but this is my last one. I just don't have the funds to buy multiple rulesets.

Thanks

Chain of Command handles armour decently if unexceptionally but it'll get pretty hairy with that many troops. It's really a platoon commanders game and it excels at that role.

Face of Battle is fantastic but it gets very chunky with more than a squad or so. Ultra-skirmish.

Thanks Weasel….CoC, from what little I saw, looked like it wasn't what I'm looking for (I'm wanting too many units on the table for those rules)

I'll have to try and see if I can't find a video of FoB game play or at least a review somewhere.

ODGW has extensive forums and they are very helpful – have you dropped by their to ask about their Mein Panzer rules?

Here is what they write abot them (note you have to buy the unit data separately frmo the rules):

Mein Panzer is a complete rule system covering company level combined arms warfare from World War I through the present day. The game is suitable for use with micro armor (1/285th – 1/300th scale) through 15mm, and has been designed from the ground up to provide a pleasant mix of historical accuracy and realism. This design philosophy is successfully presented within an easily learned, eminently playable and very enjoyable game system. No other game system on the market provides such a delicate blend of detail and playability.

Each vehicle is modeled 1:1, and has armor values, fire control, mobility, and armament ratings in sufficient detail to impart the proper "feel" to each vehicle. We condense minutić such as hit location, armor slope, turret traverse rate, optics, ground pressure, and so on. These factors are still present in the armor values, modifiers, and damage results, that abstract these details for the player in a fast, playable manner, yielding a statistically strong representation of historical performance. It is very reasonable for each player to control a full company of troops. On the other hand, the game mechanics are not so dull as to necessitate many troops on the table — games in which each player only controls a platoon can be very enjoyable! That experience owes primarily to the feel of the game mechanics.

One of the game's greatest assets is this integral "feel" where each stand behaves as the type of real-world item it represents. When you have several stands of infantry and vehicles on the table, you could theoretically represent each with a little block of wood. By the manner in which each block behaves, fights, and dies according to its game stats, you could easily discern what each block represented – a light tank, a medium tank, a tank destroyer, a transport, a heavy weapons infantry team, an engineering team, etc. Each object in Mein Panzer "feels" like its historical counterpart, even without the benefit of the visual cue from the miniature.

The game flow is very logical and natural, so new players are able to run through their own game turn sequences in the first 15 minutes, referring to the tables and charts when necessary. Each player alternates activating one platoon at a time, performing all its activities for that turn. A non-moving player has the ability to interrupt his opponent's turn with opportunity fire if he has units eligible to do so. Once all platoons have activated, a new turn starts.

Mein Panzer includes rules for Overwatch, Covering Fire, Indirect Fire, Air Support, Engineering, Structures, Amphibious Operations, and everything else that is relevant to the 20th century battlefield. These are provided as "Drop-In" modules which integrate seamlessly with the Core Rules, and yet the game can be played without ever learning these rules. This design philosophy allows players to grow into the game at their own pace, whether they wish to dive right into a game as soon as they get the rules home, or pore through the clearly organized and attractively illustrated game manual at length before firing the first shot. All the relevant information for any given game mechanic may be readily found in the concise chapter which covers it, eliminating flipping back and forth from basic to advanced rules.

I've never played Mein Panzer but i know people who do, and they enjoy it a lot.
Seems you can play pretty large games with it too.

PBI is designed a company of 2-3 platoons plus some supports and a few vehicles …

My favourite low level WWII rules.

Phil
P.B.Eye-Candy

Mine are freely downloadable from link if you want to give them a try?
We do exactly the size of game you describe with them.

IABSM from Too Fat Lardies works well with a couple of platoons or more.

Here is a thread from our forum about Battlegroup players discussing its use as a solo game…

link

You could take a look at Men Under Fire

link

It's got appropriate armor rules for the level of actin and its exceptionally good at handling larger forces.

Bolt Action would be my first consideration & if you ever want to game with someone else it is currently pretty popular & opponents will be easier to find than many other systems

Chain of Command….currently popular – a game the size you want will be close to too big for the rules to handle well – more skirmishy – you are looking like I Ain't Been Shot Yet Mum by the same company would be a better fit for what you are looking to do

Disposable Heroes…..While not my favorite system – could handle this size game well & has a fair sized fan base

Face of Battle….Pretty sure this is out of print – for good reason – most fiddly & IMHO unsatisfying system ever – make sure you model standing, kneeling and prone minis for every figure you want to use – avoid is my recommendation – not that you are likely to find a copy

Battleground WW2…also out of print but would fit the bill if you find a copy – good all around if somewhat uninspired ruleset

Jagdpanzer….again out of print – more of a big micro armor tank battle game – what you are looking to do is too small and more infantry oriented than these rules were designed for

Mein Panzer….While not out of print – see comments for Jagdpanzer as they apply to Mein Panzer as well

Battlegroup Kursk….very pretty book – may fit the bill no first hand experience

While you are poking around you may want to consider,

Platoon Commander
Rapid Fire
Arc of Fire
World at War

Rapid fire and Arc of Fire I believe are still in print – personally I am a fan of the out of print World At War by Mongoose publishing – even though I don't care much for the company

Jagdpanzer and Face ofBattle are both in print (I bought both in the last year orso).

I think IABSM would work well for what you want. The number of units could be handled. The card system lends itself well to solo games.

I've been playing Battleground WWII for years. The core of the rules is similar to AH Squad Leader. They are still in print though the authors have not put anything out in years.

For armor combat you first roll to hit, roll location, roll penetration, and then effects. I could send you an official tank chart if you like.

A 1943 Bazooka is different than the later model, and early panzerfaust is different from later models. etc. Kind of choose the rules you want to use based on types of equipment is being used.

Supplements cover the war in the Pacific, D-Day, Africa, several late war supplements (both east and western front). All major factions are covered in one way or another. The main rules cover US, German, and Russian forces. Each supplement comes with around 10+ scenarios. Also most, if not all, of the skirmish campaign books can be used. Card driven initiative, artillery rules (off-board/On-board)

Some would argue that a platoon per side is too big, I think that depends on your familiarity with the rules and the number of players. We normally give each player at least a squad with support with 3-6+ players easily. We use to play weekly and easily played at the company level but we knew the charts so well we often did need them.

Cheers
Duane

I forgot to mention that I have not real sure how much different they would be any other rule set solo. I've played them solo maybe once or twice but it has been a while ago.

Duane
Duane@syrhobbswargames.com

Yes CoC is for leading a platoon. You want IABSM, which is for a company.

Card driven- each unit and leader has a card, which are put in the pack as the units are revealed off blinds.

Primarily infantry, but armour has options- tank units can be given platoon orders which give bonuses in exchange for limitations – Hunt gives you +1 firing, but means you can only use 1 movement dice. Hits on tanks can do mechanical damage if they don't kill – eg -1 from firing if gun damaged etc.
Hits on units may kill, or may add shock, accumulated battle fatigue which gives negative mod to dice, and eventually breaks a unit.
Officers are important, as shock accumulates they spend less time ordering and more time rallying.

Some people don't like the shooting because you define whether its a Great, good or poor shot: ultimately its the umpire or players call. As a solo player you may love this: its ultimately flexible.

Rich always encourages people to override rules if they feel the situation warrants it. This has lead to that awful phrase 'toolbox'. No you can play the rules straight but you should not be constrained by ridiculous conflits between the rules and reason. Unit stats are endlessly tweakable if you want to make them subtly different from standard: as men are killed you lose Action Points. By changing the boundaries of when AP are lost you can fine tune units.

You may also want to consider Platoon Forward also from TFL. Written for IABSMs little brother, platoon level game Troops Weapons And Tactics, it is supposed to be easily to scale up, and allows solo players to generate scenarios where the enemy is unknown and on blinds. Although written for Troops, its easy to fit in other games, even non lardie ones.

PBI uses an 8x8 grid rather than measurements. Been some years since I played but I remember it as a good game.

IABSM is amazing. You do have to be comfortable with figuring out odds and such for yourself though.

It's easily one of the best games at the company level/individual basing level out there though.

Bolt Action is NOT what you are looking for. It lumps all tanks into groups, so all light tanks have the same armor as do all medium and heavy. Fun game, but it is a very "generic" rule set – put any figures on your bases and it will work just fine.

Fun but really light weight…

Get the all…you know you want to…..rules authors will love you.

I'm a fan of the Battlegroup ruleset (Kursk, Overlord, Blitzkrieg etc)
However for the level your talking about i echo the shouts of IABSM. Great rules.

As I recall, rapid fire rules began at a skirmish level many years ago

> As I recall, rapid fire rules began at a skirmish level many years ago

And they still feel skirmish level too. The problem for the poster is that if Chain of Command's armor rules are not good enough than RF is right out.

Chain of Command's armour rules are fine and have some detail, but the scale is unusual for armoured combat. You know those armour penetration tables where the point blank penetration value is listed under 500m? Well, you would need two tables to get into the next range band and four tables to get out to 1000m. Similarly, tanks really need to fear the infantry anti-tank weapons. If a tank is on the board, typically, it is in range to be shot at and killed by these weapons.

The focus is on the infantry and the tanks are really just for support.

I must put a note in for Panzer Grenadier Deluxe by David Brown
(Available from Caliver books in UK)
An excellent set capable of handling large or small actions.
Would rate it similar complexity to IABSM or Battlegroup sets

Cheers

Weasel – not so much as figuring out odds, but making a call on when something is good or bad.

Also as a solo gamer it has lots of "steps" that you can define your self. As I mentioned shooting is Great/Good/Poor, and usually we stick to a fairly simple set of column shifts. As a solo player you can tweak this as there is no negotiation needed – you may decide that you don't want to apply a full shift from Good to Poor, so give a dice mod instead – from memory I think a DRM of -8 is approx one shift, so you might apply a -4. Or look at the two results and average them.

As a solo gamer you can fully utilise the malleable properties of IABSM.

After a lot of deliberation, I think I'm going to go the route of Battlegroup Kursk rules.

I've watched several video's of gameplay and I like the amount of charts and different types of firing.

Thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions.

Jagdpanzer 2nd Edition has been updated to make the infantry rules much better. The armor rules were left almost untouched, just streamlined to eliminate some of the math-work. The whole combat charts fit on two sheets of paper. Its a company to battalion level game.

I play two companies of infantry and a couple or three platoons of armor (give or take) per side, and it works good for that.

Dont know if there's any spiral bound books left, but I think you can at least get the down-load version still.
Go to: Jagdpanzer.com and see. Happy hunting.

Last Hussar –
Yeah, it's a wonderful game both solo and with people.
It's one of those games that initially I read and went "whats the big deal?". Then I played it and it all became clear.