Editor in Chief Bill | 29 May 2015 5:04 p.m. PST |
Some people apparently did not understand that "jokes" about nuking entire nations are not appropriate on TMP. Therefore, I've added the War Crimes rule, which explicitly states that advocating war crimes (even as a jest) is not allowed. If you disagree with this new rule, you can of course call for a community vote… |
Winston Smith | 29 May 2015 5:26 p.m. PST |
Jokes about nuking are forbidden. However if you are serious about nuking, it's OK? Did I get that right? If both jokes and seriousness about nuking are both forbidden, then you had better shut down Ultramodern for a week or more while you go through it and …. err …. nuke a whole load of posts. From The Usual Suspects. (Knowing who they are should make it easier to track them down.) Or you could shut down UM permanently, because many times that is what those threads degenerate into. |
Rod I Robertson | 29 May 2015 6:04 p.m. PST |
Editor in Chief Bill:
Article 6 of the Charter provides:" (b) War Crimes: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages. or devastation not justified by military necessity; " (c) Crimes against Humanity: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated." Perhaps you may want to re-think this policy as, according to the definition of what is a war crime, much of what we discuss here could be construed as such. Crimes against humanity may be a better starting point. Cheers and good gaming. Rod Robertson. |
EagleSixFive | 29 May 2015 6:07 p.m. PST |
Thats why I ended up blocking UM Winston. You can't discuss anything about UM without politics coming into it, because politics are relevant when discussing current or past near events. I gave up, its just too hard and life is too short to give a toss. |
Winston Smith | 29 May 2015 6:13 p.m. PST |
Good thing Dear Editor in Chief cannot retroactively DH the foul miscreants. That would be unconstitutional ex post facto prosecution! |
Editor in Chief Bill | 29 May 2015 6:14 p.m. PST |
…much of what we discuss here could be construed as such… Discussion is not the same as advocating. |
Rod I Robertson | 29 May 2015 6:31 p.m. PST |
Editor in Chief Bill: If a poster (commenting on an on-going, and real-world conflict) advocates that Force A should not attack Force B in a village, town or city, but should rather destroy the village, town or city with artillery and air-strikes and bypass the burning wreckage, you would not construe that as advocacy of a war crime? Rod Robertson. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 29 May 2015 6:39 p.m. PST |
As per above: only if "not justified by military necessity" I'm not trying to shut down useful discussion, just the idiots who think nukes or genocide are funny. |
darthfozzywig | 29 May 2015 6:49 p.m. PST |
So a sailor, a nuclear-armed terrorist, and an ethnic minority walk into a bar… |
Winston Smith | 29 May 2015 7:02 p.m. PST |
…and the bartender asks, "What is this? Some kind of a joke?" |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 29 May 2015 7:04 p.m. PST |
There is a frequent quote from Aliens, "Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure," that is frequently usec as a joke in a broad variety of circumstances. Am I to understand we may no longer make this joke at all? |
DesertScrb | 29 May 2015 7:08 p.m. PST |
That Aliens quote should be doghouseable because of overuse. It's the TMP equivalent of shouting "Freebird!" at a rock concert. |
Capt Flash | 29 May 2015 7:30 p.m. PST |
@Wibston Smith- lmao! That was perfect! |
Mako11 | 29 May 2015 8:12 p.m. PST |
Okay, got it, nuking nations, and/or joking about that is right out (if I understand the queen's English properly, from all those Monty Python skits I watched back in the day, it appears that means bad, or not permitted). Does that still leave cities being okay, and/or the use of small tac nukes, or neutron bombs? Are chem, and bio weapons jokes permitted? Can we joke about waterboarding, since some of our troops get that done to them during basic training, or is that verboten (means forbidden), too? Not sure a community vote is really needed on the subject, but I expect there will be a lot more questions about this, in order to ensure compliance with the wishes of today's political correctness police (for which the acronym just happens to be, PCP). |
Weasel | 29 May 2015 8:27 p.m. PST |
I imagine we can manage to talk about the compatibility between various 15mm miniatures ranges, without discussing ethnic cleansing. |
McKinstry | 29 May 2015 8:29 p.m. PST |
I thought 'Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." was an official and very enshrined in traditional TMP response to virtually anything? |
Mako11 | 29 May 2015 8:43 p.m. PST |
I'm with McKinstry on this, and at the very least think that phrase should be grandfathered in (unless the PCP find that to be too sexist. If so, then perhaps it should be grandmothered, or transgendered in). I call for an official poll for the "Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!" to be an official, TMP-approved, sarcastic retort. All in favor say aye (eye, I – yes, I am just being silly now, with the options for spelling aye, which means affirmative, or yes, in American English). |
Weasel | 29 May 2015 8:46 p.m. PST |
Can someone give me an example of a wargaming related discussion that you can't have, without advocating genocide, war crimes or ethnic cleansing? |
Doctor X | 29 May 2015 11:55 p.m. PST |
DesertScrb +1 Should be a month in the hole for this one. Originality counts people. You can do better! |
Tango India Mike | 30 May 2015 4:09 a.m. PST |
People could use common sense. Do people really not know what is acceptable. |
Banned for Hating Trolls | 30 May 2015 6:46 a.m. PST |
I advocate nuking TMP! It's the only solution! ;-) |
RavenscraftCybernetics | 30 May 2015 8:10 a.m. PST |
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darthfozzywig | 30 May 2015 9:36 a.m. PST |
I imagine we can manage to talk about the compatibility between various 15mm miniatures ranges, without discussing ethnic cleansing. So saying "people who choose 15mm minis over 10mm should be ethnically cleansed" is verboten? |
Robert Kennedy | 30 May 2015 12:33 p.m. PST |
" Game over man! Game over!" LOL Robert |
Weasel | 30 May 2015 3:05 p.m. PST |
Darth – If it was 20mm, it'd be different. :) |
darthfozzywig | 30 May 2015 4:36 p.m. PST |
Well, of course, Weasel. No one would tolerate those. |
Mako11 | 30 May 2015 10:00 p.m. PST |
Is saying chemically cleansed okay? |
Ottoathome | 31 May 2015 8:01 a.m. PST |
Dear Winston Only the government is prohibited from Ex-post-facto and abridging free speech. The rest of the world can be as unprohibited as it wishes. Otto |
Macu naima 01 | 31 May 2015 10:00 a.m. PST |
Remember, this is TMP: do nothing and say nothing unless you hear "Bill says…" first. Especially if your politics lie anywhere to the left of Generalissimo Franco's (He's still dead, btw. I think Tango posted about that at some point last week.) |
tbeard1999 | 01 Jun 2015 11:08 a.m. PST |
This is against my better judgment, but I'm weak at times… This is a bad idea for the simple reason that "war crimes" is a legal term of art that even experienced attorneys who practice public international law struggle with. Assume that Syrian and Egyptian armies are massing on Israel's border and Syria's and Egypt's presidents are making belligerent statements about wiping Israel off the map. Assume in a TMP conversation that I advocate a pre-emptive strike with tactical nuclear weapons to obliterate the Arab armies. Have I run afoul of the "no war crimes" rule? Does the result change if I advocate this even if I agree that it is certain that nuclear fallout will blow into Jordan and Iraq (who are not belligerents?) Does the result change if I advocate this even though I agree that it is certain that hundreds of Jordanians and Iraqis will die of radiation poisoning? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Assume that this actually happens and I state that I am glad Israel used nuclear weapons. Is that a violation? What if I also say that I believe it was the right thing to do? What if I advocate battlefield execution of captured terrorists who are not wearing a uniform or a designating identifier? Does the result change if I specify that this is to happen after a battlefield tribunal (3 U.S. Army officers) determines that the terrorists are unlawful combatants? How about this -- assume that Israel attacks Hamas positions. News reports state that Hamas is immediately executing Israeli Army prisoners. I advocate that Israel should give no quarter and execute all Hamas prisoners in that area for 48 hours. And if Hamas continues to execute Israeli prisoners, Israel should continue this policy in that area of operations. Finally, Israeli troops, during the above operation, stop a CNN news crew. They discover that the cameraman is a known terrorist. I advocate that the Israelis convene a battlefield tribunal (3 officers) and immediately execute the CNN crew if the tribunal determines that the cameraman is an unlawful combatant. Have I violated TMP policy? |
Weasel | 01 Jun 2015 12:42 p.m. PST |
Last night, me and a friend of mine discussed whether to use 3mm or 6mm for a project and throughout the entire discussion, the topic of executing POW's or pre-emptive nuclear war never came up. This past weekend, we had a playtest of a system I am working on and did so, without discussing either topic either. And today, as I am painting some 3mm figures and preparing to take a few pictures, the thought of war crimes never entered my mind. Now, I have done things wrong before, so I grabbed a few rulebooks off my shelf. Top of the pile was Laserburn, Crossfire and an older version of Nuts. Glancing through each, I didn't find any sections discussing ethnic cleansing or executing prisoners (or taking them, for that matter!). Nuclear weapons seem to have been omitted too, though as I said, this isn't the final version of Nuts, so maybe they were added there? Is there a "Crossfire Warcrimes edition" I should buy? * * * * * My conclusion: When discussing toy soldiers on a gaming site, there is no actual need to discuss war crimes and it will not come up unless you go out of your way to make it so. One might suggest carrying out such conversations on a site dedicated to politics. In fact, our editor runs such a site. |
tbeard1999 | 01 Jun 2015 3:38 p.m. PST |
Weasel -- well, I believe that 3mm figures are war crimes in and of themselves. 6mm is the One True Scale and all should bow down before its inestimable awesomeness… While I'd agree with you normally, the fact is that when discussing ultramodern and hypothetical conflicts, the statements I listed are entirely plausible. I'm trying to understand the contours of what a "war crime" is (in TMP terms). Do you think any of my hypothetical responses should constitute a violation of TMP rules? |
Alfred Adler does the Hobby | 01 Jun 2015 6:28 p.m. PST |
Has anyone linked the Steve Buscemi "No Nukes No Nukes" yet? |
Slappy | 01 Jun 2015 7:35 p.m. PST |
Is there a good lets nuke a city joke? |