"New Fighting Sail rules - Movements query" Topic

The different movement types all seem to be 2 inches possible followed by a turn or pivot.

At the bottom of the movement page though the diagram seems wrong, it seems to be giving additional free moves, has anyone else got the rules, can you read the movement page and check the diagram carefully

Thanks

Andy
PS is there a forum for these rules anywhere

Are you talking about the new rules from Osprey?

Looks right to me by the example next to it…

4 Sailing Points:
1st point – Manoeuvre – forward 2" then a 30-degree turn.
2nd & 3rd points – Tack – forward 2" then a 90-degree turn windward.
4th point – Manoeuvre – forward 2" then a 30-degree turn.

The turns are part of the movement, as stated in the bullet list at the top of the page.

I agree, Cpt Kremmen. I noticed the same thing and was also wondering if there was a forum, or a way to contact the author. The points costs and distances described and illustrated in the lower diagram do not match the point costs and distances illustrated in the upper diagram.

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but if I remember correctly, one of the example in the diagram at the top of the page showed that for one sail point you could essentially a) slide the ship forward 2 inches until the stern aligned with the "corner" of the template (the ship moves from adjacent to the template to having just it's stern touching the template corner), then b)pivot from the stern for a 30-degree turn.

In contrast, the first move illustrated at the bottom of the page appeared to show that you would slide the ship forward a total of 4 inches--from the bow of the ship touching the bottom of the template, to the stern of the ship touching the top corner of the template--before pivoting from the stern for a 30-degree turn.

I just checked boardgamegeek.com. Someone had raised the same question there. The author, Ryan Miller, clarified that the examples and illustrations at the top of the page are correct. The movement example at the bottom is incorrect.

Thanks Lance,

The diagram at the bottom the ship

moves forwards 2 inches (1 move)
then it pivots at the front and moves forwards 2 inches (1 move)
then it moves forwards 2 inches pivots 90 degrees and moves 2 inches (a 2 point move)
then it moves another 2 inches (1 move)
then it pivots at the front and moves forwards 2 inches (1 move)

Total 6 movement points

Very strange a manoeuver costs 1 sail move and involves a movement of 2" possibly including a 30 degree turn

A Tack costs 2 sail points but does actually include a total movement of 4" and a 90 degree turn

A wearing move is the weirdest it involves a total move of 4 inches, including a 90 degree turn and only costs 1 point.

In other words you can wear at twice the speed you can go in a straight line!!!

Andy

Hey sailors!

Sorry about the confusion. The diagram is in error.

Each sailing point you spend gets you up to 2" of forward movement. If you move the ship the entire 2", you get a turn after that. The turn involves no extra forward movement, so under no circumstances should a ship move 4" before getting a turn for only 1 sailing point.

My apologies for the confusion, apparently I missed it on one of my read-throughs.

So should a wear cost 2 points
or
should you turn on the spot and move 2"
or
something else

As the current text description of a Wear is 2" then a turn then another 2" for 1 sail point. This is in the text, nothing to do with the diagram as Wears aren't on that.

Andy

The text description at the top of page 13 reads: "Wearing: the ship moves 2", then makes a tight turn away from the wind. If the wind is on the ship's starboard side, wearing would be a turn to port. Wearing costs 1 sailing point. Ships that are running cannot wear."

I can't see anything that suggests a wearing ship makes another 2" move after turning – can you clarify this issue?

Wearing costs 1 sailing point, as it is easier to turn away from the wind than it is to turn towards it.

The turn itself doesn't carry with it a 2" move – perhaps that is where the confusion is. You move the ship 2", then pivot the ship on its stern in the direction you wish to turn.

The part about "you can't make partial moves before turning" wasn't meant to suggest this – I just didn't want a ship to only move 1" before turning. The diagrams at the top right of that page show the correct method for a 2" move followed by a turn. I hope this makes things clearer!

So, 2" move straight = 1 sail point. 1 turn with no forward move = 1 sail point. Tacking and Wearing with no forward movement = 2 sailing points. You cannot turn,Wear or tack without frist doing at least one, 2" movement forward for 1 sailing point. So you must have 2 sailing points to turn and 3 sailing points Wear and Tack. Do I have this right?
Be safe
Rory

If you check the wording on page 13 it does indeed say

Wearing: the ship moves 2", then makes a tight turn away from the wind.

Let me break that down.

Move 2 inches
Carry out a tight turn

See diagram at top right of page 13 titled "Performing a tight turn" The vessel moves forward 2" then turns 90 degrees.

The wording of Wearing should be "Make a tight turn as per diagram on this page" or words to that effect.

It actually says move 2 inches then follow the diagram entitled tight turn.

I assume then that the intent was that Tacking only involves a movement of 2" followed by a 90 degree turn around the rear of the ship? Once again it says do a 2" move then the manoeuvre in the diagram at the top of page 13 entitled "tight turn"

Unfortunately "Tight turn" in the text is NOT the same thing as "tight turn" in the diagram at the top of page 13

I think I am getting closer to what you meant to say though rather than what is actually written :)

Andy

Rory Devsoc,

I don't think that is right.

a) wears are 1 point for a 90 degree turn, tacks are 2 points for a 90 degree turn

The diagram at the top of page 13 is entitled "Tight turn" i think this is an error, the entire manoeuvre show in that diagram is a tack or a wear depending upon the direction of the wind.

I think….

Back to WS&IM then?

AH, I see what's going on. The diagram at the top right of page 13 is showing turns *including* their preceding 2" move.

That was quite a misread on my part! Apologies gents.

So here's how maneuvering was intended to work:

Choose one of the three available movement options – Maneuver, Tack, or Wear.

Maneuver: The ship moves up to 2". If it moves the full 2", it may turn on the spot up to 30 degrees in either direction, using its stern as the axis point of the turn. This costs 1 sailing point total.

Tack: The ship moves the full 2". It may then makes a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees towards the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 2 sailing points. Ships that are running may not tack.

Wear: the ship moves the full 2". It may then may a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees away from the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 1 sailing point. Ships that are running may not wear.

I can totally see why that diagram caused confusion. I'll see what I can do with Osprey to issue errata, and perhaps a FAQ.

Sorry Andy,
I got the Wearing wrong it is only 1 sailing point. I think I've got the rest right! Or have I??
Be safe
Rory

@BillyFish: Lord Nelson wouldn't give up so easily! ;D

"Choose one of the three available movement options – Maneuver, Tack, or Wear.

Maneuver: The ship moves up to 2". If it moves the full 2", it may turn on the spot up to 30 degrees in either direction, using its stern as the axis point of the turn. This costs 1 sailing point total.

Tack: The ship moves the full 2". It may then makes a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees towards the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 2 sailing points. Ships that are running may not tack.

Wear: the ship moves the full 2". It may then may a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees away from the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 1 sailing point. Ships that are running may not wear."

Perfect! and easy to understand…..

But as the diagrams both at the top and the bottom are incorrect it is going to confuse one heck of a lot of people :(

Billyfish – These look like a good VERY simple set of rules that should allow you to have fun with at least half a dozen ships of the line each in an evening, possibly even more. I need to try them to be sure as they are a bit simplistic, but on the whole I think I like them

A minor aside about the way you have costed ships, I was amused to see that a french 74 is more expensive so presumably better than an english 74!

I think I will choose to put a gunnery captain on all english ships to better reflect their increased weight of fire, speed of loading, carronades etc, i know it makes the english more expensive but they should be! No self respecting Englishman would expect to be bettered by a Frenchman!!

Any chance of some captains with negative attributes we could put on French or Spanish ships, maybe "Lacks Ardour" -1 on discipline. Landlubber -1 on sailing dice "sold all the gunpowder that should have been for training" -1 on gunnery?

Andy

Andy,Ryan,
O.K. If the ship is not running it can Tack or Wear.
To move straight up to 2" = 1 Sailing point.
To turn, 2" straight then turn up to 30o = 1 Sailing point
To Wear, 2" straight then Wear 90o = 1 Sailing point
To Tack, 2" straight then Tack 90o = 2 Sailing points
Be safe
Rory

I like that one Andy. I think it is a good idea. I would like to see the Swedes and Turkish navies too. Something for the Russians to fight!
I think the French built better sailing ships than the British, but not so strong. French like Gray-hounds and Brit like Bull-dogs
Be safe and thanks for the help
Rory

@Rory – you've got it correct! Sorry again for the confusion.

No Ryan,
Do not be sorry. It is nice to talk and and hear other ideas and hear your points. I'm just sorry it did not come out 100% right for you in the printed book. I can only say thank you for your rules and good luck with them. I'm looking forward to give them a go.
Be safe
Rory

Rory,
I believe the French ships were built very well, quite possibly better than english ships.
But the English crews were far superior to French crews.

Before the revolution the French Navy was very good, but they killed all the officers, the crew felt they were now equal citizens and would not take orders and quickly the ENglish got the upper hand and the French navy spent 90% of it's time in harbour with the crews in the local pubs whilst the english crews were out at sea sometimes literally for years on end.

Best option, English crew in a captured french ship :)

Andy,
The English crews liked french ships. But the Naval yards less so. The captured french ships could not stand the heavy duty of the blockades as well as British built ships. and had to come in for servicing more often than British ships. French ships did sail better than British ships. Yes! to your last point, but not on blockade.
Be safe
Rory

After looking at it in the book, and reading the description of the move diagramed at the bottom of Page 13 it is clear the confusion is caused by the two Turning Diagrams at the top of the same page. Those two Diagrams are meant to show "how" the turns are made, however the Templates are incorrectly located in both diagrams. The corners of the Template should be aligned with the stern of the ship in each of those Diagrams, as the ships have already made their 2" moves!

Otherwise, the Diagram at the bottom of the page is correct for the ship's selected moves.

Re: WS&IM -I was being ironic, lads. What more tortuous turning rules can you get than in Wooden Ships …?

Vagamer63 if you look carefully i think you will find it would take 7 sailing points to carry out the actions in the diagram at the bottom of the page not the 4 it says. That diagram is totally wrong

Maneuver: The ship moves up to 2". If it moves the full 2", it may turn on the spot up to 30 degrees in either direction, using its stern as the axis point of the turn. This costs 1 sailing point total.

Tack: The ship moves the full 2". It may then makes a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees towards the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 2 sailing points. Ships that are running may not tack.

Wear: the ship moves the full 2". It may then may a turn on the spot of up to 90 degrees away from the wind, using its stern as the axis point. This costs 1 sailing point. Ships that are running may not wear."

Cpt,

Actually the diagram IS not correct! Based on the write up under Turning! However, each 2" move is indicated by the Arrows. Three Arrows show three moves each of 2" for a total of 6". What is deceiving are the 2 30 degree turns which cost No Points, and that the Templates are not aligned as the rules state they should be!

Thus the ship moves 2" then makes a Standard Turn for 1 Sailing Point. It then moves 2" and makes a tack into the wind using a Tight Turn, for 2 Sailing Points. Then it makes a final move of 2" with another Standard Turn for 1 sailing Point. Total sailing Points used = 4 Total move = 6" Number of Turns = 3. Actual distance moved however, is close to 11.5"?????

The rules clearly state that after moving 2" you may take a Standard Turn at no cost, and in order to make that turn you line up the stern of the ship with the corner edge of the template then position the ship parallel with the angle of the Template.

Where the confusion is coming from apparently is folks think that the angled section represents a movement distance, which it does not! One: the actual length of that angled section is only 1 7/8" long. two: the Standard for measuring movement in games is you measure from the Front of the Base including making turns etc. With the rules stating the use of aligning the stern of the ship with the corner of the Template you are actually gaining the length of the base as additional movement at No Cost while making turns!

Even the diagrams at the top of the page do not show the correct alignment of the template in relation to the ship, which helps add to the confusion I think! Somewhere in the write up it should have clearly stated that you should measure ALL movement using the back edge of the ship's base (or ship's stern). Which will bother many folks even with 1/1200 miniature ships where most are mounted on bases longer then two inches!

Another little note on movement is a ship that moves LESS then 2", or does not move at all receives an Anchor Marker, if it doesn't already have one!

Maybe it will all be cleared up in version 2.0?