""Jalopied" Armoured Cars, North Africa" Topic
16 Posts
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Bertie | 27 May 2015 4:26 a.m. PST |
I know that M3/5 Honey/Stuart tanks were "jalopied" as a field expedient to remove their turrets and thus lower their profile for recce duties, and eventually even factory produced in this configuration as the T8. However I have just come across a reference to armoured cars being jalopied in North Africa in Jock Watt's "A Tankie's Travels" about 3 RTR when the regiment was re-equipping at Tripoli: "I have a vague memory of some old armoured cars that we inherited with the rest of the gear which, during the night, had the turrets removed, cut up and the plates welded onto the front and sides. They looked very low on the ground without a turret and the thought of standing in that thing, with most of one's body out in the open, sent a cold shiver down my back. Initially I was to be involved with these, but thankfully that order was changed and I took command of a tank troop."(P153.) The book was published in 2006 so was Jock Watt's vague memory leading him astray and he was thinking of jalopied Honeys or were armoured cars also jalopied? If his recollection is correct these would be fun to model but I can't find any references, or even better photos, of such vehicles. What were they…Humbers,or AECs? Daimlers would not have been old in early 1943 I can't think of Marmon Harringtons being described as "low on the ground." Can anyone cast some light on this? Cheers, Bertie |
Lt Col Pedant | 27 May 2015 6:07 a.m. PST |
RR ACs, or those of that type? |
Bertie | 27 May 2015 6:45 a.m. PST |
Billy, I thought of Rolls Royces, and they would certainly meet the description "old", but they were retired in Egypt in 1941 and so I can't see how they would end up in Tripoli in early 1943. With all the other things that had priority being shipped the 1000 miles from Alex to Tripoli a bunch of 20+ year old armoured cars would be way down the list. My best guess, if they were armoured cars, would be Humbers or AECs that were being replaced by in a front-line regiment by Daimlers… but that is just a guess. Regards to Sean and Michael by the way… Cheers, Bertie |
Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 11:30 a.m. PST |
Marmon-Herringtons were jalopied with a wide variety of (mainly captured) weapons – Breda 20mm, Hotchkiss 25mm, Bofors 37mm, Boehler 47mm to name a few… |
Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 11:31 a.m. PST |
Here's one with a Breda 20mm:
And another:
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Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 11:33 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure what's fitted to this, but it's an SP artillery OP vehicle:
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Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 11:34 a.m. PST |
Another gun type (37mm?):
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Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 11:38 a.m. PST |
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Griefbringer | 27 May 2015 12:18 p.m. PST |
Replacing the turret with an improvised gun mount does not really help to lower the profile – and the gun shield provides even less protection to the gunners than the turret! |
Jemima Fawr | 27 May 2015 1:11 p.m. PST |
The purpose of jalopying Marmon-Herringtons was not to reduce the profile, but rather to improve armament. |
No longer can support TMP | 27 May 2015 1:46 p.m. PST |
I'd say the M-H's match the description in the OP: ""I have a vague memory of some old armoured cars that we inherited with the rest of the gear which, during the night, had the turrets removed, cut up and the plates welded onto the front and sides. They looked very low on the ground without a turret and the thought of standing in that thing, with most of one's body out in the open, sent a cold shiver down my back. Initially I was to be involved with these, but thankfully that order was changed and I took command of a tank troop."(P153.) Now, it's true that adding the gun shield would raise the profile significantly, without the gun shield their profile is fairly low. And even with the gun shield, the crew would still feel pretty vulnerable. It maybe that the author misremembered creating the gun shield for welding metal to the side. |
trance | 27 May 2015 2:17 p.m. PST |
Old does not always mean old in years it might also refer to equipment left over from another unit. Im thinking they might have been Humber LRC from an RAC RR,Used only long enough for proper replacements to be found. |
Vintage Wargaming | 27 May 2015 10:14 p.m. PST |
Another candidate for old might be the Morris CS9 – only have access to Wikipedia just now but it says 30 with the 11th Hussars |
Bertie | 28 May 2015 2:26 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the input Gents. I agree that "old" in this context probably means "pre-owned" (as second-hand cars are described in Hong Kong,) rather than antique, so I would discount the RRs and Morris possibilities. I thought that LRCs were not used by 8th Army after Gazala where 50 Recce was destroyed, and subsequently 44 and 51 Recce were re-equipped with carriers and, later MHs, so, like the RRs, LRCs would have been unlikely to get to Tripoli. I was aware of all the modifications made to up-arm MHs, which is not really what Jock Watts was talking about, and they don't really fit the description of "low on the ground" and providing no cover, ( consider the position of the flat-capped officer in JF's first pic of E22888 above,)but they remain a possibility, and as JF's pics show vehicles were photographed, especially those with odd modifications, and I've never seen a pic of a turretless A/C except for MHs. Whilst lack of evidence of existence is not proof of non-existence, "defrocked" MHs like JF's artillery OP above seem to be the only A/C candidate, unless Watt's memory was playing tricks after all those years and he was thinking of jalopied Honeys which existed in abundance and meet the rest of Jock's description perfectly. Jalopied Honeys were used in Italy and N.W.Europe. Does anybody have any evidence of jalopied A/Cs in other theatres that might indicate that, as with Honeys, the practice originated in North Africa? Cheers, Bertie |
Murvihill | 28 May 2015 9:47 a.m. PST |
I wonder if the mod was to give AA capability to a mechanized or motorized unit? |
Bertie | 28 May 2015 11:11 a.m. PST |
Murvihill I don't think so. 3 RTR was a tank unit and from the context of "…Initially I was to be involved with these, but thankfully that order was changed and I took command of a tank troop…." I'm pretty sure that Watt was referring to the Recce troop, which in the desert would have been equipped with Dingos and carriers, and perhaps armoured cars or jalopied Honeys. 3RTR's tanks in early 1943 were a light squadron of Crusaders and two heavy squadrons of Shermans, plus one Lee. Cheers, Bertie |
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