Johny Boy | 26 May 2015 11:53 a.m. PST |
I know Chinese attention was primarily Aimed at Korea, indochina being something of a side show and deliberately kept "Cold" as it were. However in wanting to add a bit of punch to the Viet Minh's options what if China had opted to send in hardware? I'm guessing Mig's would be out of the question but would there be any possibility of WW2 era Russian aircraft eg Il-2's. Likewise the venerable T-34/85 might have found it hard going in the wetlands and highlands but could the T-70 have been of use? I'm thinking possibly manned by Chinese/ Soviet "advisors". Again this is purely for a what if option to existing scenarios. |
Winston Smith | 26 May 2015 12:51 p.m. PST |
They won without them at Dien Bien Phu, didn't they? I think a bigger "what if?" would have been if the US supported Ho Chi Minh, had Roosevelt lived. He was all for dismantling conial empires. |
The Gray Ghost | 26 May 2015 1:08 p.m. PST |
"what if" America had gotten the U.N. involved Korea style or if America had sent in troops in the early 50s |
Winston Smith | 26 May 2015 1:11 p.m. PST |
Would de Gaulle have permitted US or UN troops? |
Johny Boy | 26 May 2015 1:32 p.m. PST |
I wonder if France would have tolerated US practical involvement in what she saw as her struggle, yes to all the equipment, but an emphatic Gallic "non" when it came to suggested involvement. Could definitely see British involvement emerging in an alternative start to the conflict, in a sort of Malaya style capacity. Interesting idea to have US funded Vietminh courtesy of the OSS and CIA though. In that context it could have easily soured US, Franco- British relations just as Suez did. |
Johny Boy | 26 May 2015 1:33 p.m. PST |
I read somewhere Nukes where on the table for France at DBP if considered necessary. |
Risaldar Singh | 26 May 2015 2:28 p.m. PST |
The French nightmare was a China-based "Vietminh" air force flying Mig-15s manned by PRC volunteers as they would have made short work of the French Air Force presence. Any air attack on French airfield, even by Il-2s would have been devastating to air supply capacity. As for tanks, they wouldn't have been very useful with very limited favourable terrain and long supply lines. The VM got plenty of heavy hardware from China and basically all it could handle: truck, artillery and AA guns. Did the trick Winston Smith pointed out. |
Chuckaroobob | 26 May 2015 5:03 p.m. PST |
"Opertion Vulture" is the book with all the nuke options. |
mashrewba | 27 May 2015 2:35 a.m. PST |
What was it the French got from Indochina that made all this worthwhile? |
Martin Rapier | 27 May 2015 3:37 a.m. PST |
"What was it the French got from Indochina that made all this worthwhile?" An Empire, just like North Africa. Vive la France. More seriously, there are lots of raw materials in Indochina including extensive rubber plantations established once the car industry expanded in the 1930s. France later invested in industrial production facilities too (textiles etc). |
Johny Boy | 27 May 2015 5:18 a.m. PST |
From what I gather as well as the at the time immensely profitable rubber plantations (this was prior to modern production methods) it was mainly a means of upholding a shattered sense of national prestige. However in a foreshadow of what was to happen in the second conflict. French national opinion was bitterly divided over participation in the conflict. Hence the high level of foreign nationals in French forces, the general public had little interest or support for war. |
monongahela | 27 May 2015 10:52 a.m. PST |
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catavar | 27 May 2015 11:33 p.m. PST |
Viet tanks wouldn't be completely out of the question. They used trucks throughout tonkin. The French were concerned enough to get a few M36 Jacksons late in the war just in case. |
Johny Boy | 28 May 2015 7:47 a.m. PST |
I'm guessing the Jackson's were there to deter possible T-34/85 intervention, had the Chines offered these to the Vietminh the results would have been horrifying for the Stuart's and Chaffee's out there. Only question would be how effective a tank of the T-34's weight group would be in terms of terrain and bridges. |
catavar | 28 May 2015 9:17 a.m. PST |
One big what if would be Chinese troops. I read somewhere the Pro-French Thai Partisans were becoming such a problem that a large number of Chinese regulars crossed the border to help suppress them. |
Johny Boy | 28 May 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
Quick check online outlines that the T34/85 was a comparable weight to the Jackson at approx 28 – 30 tonnes so if the Jackson tanks could practically get around Indochina, them the T34/ 85 would not be out of the question. Reading "The Last Valley", sources used state the AA guns were all directed by Chinese "volunteers" at DBP, plus the huge casualty toll amongst the Vietminh might have made it an option |