"Number of Pavlov Grenadier battalions?" Topic

Can anyone please advise how many battalions would be in the field at any one time for the Pavlov Grenadiers? Looking 1812-14 period.

Also, how many colours did a Pavlov battalion carry? I'm thinking 2 per standard Russian line battalions..

Perhaps they wore bibs?

Let's hope Sasha's around to respond, his knowledge about the Russian Napoleonic forces is incredible…….

In basic terms, here's what I believe to be correct. In 1812, two battalions [1st and 3rd] were with the 1st Western Army, and there was a depot battalion [2nd] with Wittgenstein's I Corps.

I believe, typically, there were two colours per field battalions. The 1st battalion carried one colored and one white, while the other battalion[s] carried two colored flags.

According to a couple of authors, all three battalions were at Bautzen.

Ligniere and McLaddie are correct for the two different campaigns.

After the 1812 campaign, the Pavlovs were inducted into the Russian Guard establishment and thus probably would have had all three battalions in the field as part of the Guard Corps in 1813 and 1814.

This is my favorite Russian unit and has always been included in any battle in which Russians were involved, whether they were actually there or not.

Jim

I thought that Empires, Eagles, and Lions did a section on them well over 20 years ago that had some interesting info that gamers seem to get wrong when painting them every time. Apparently, only the 1st battalion wore the famous mitre cap, with the cap being worn by the NCOs and officers of the 2nd battalion. The 3rd battalion was strictly a depot battalion and was dressed in regular Russian infantry uniforms, although some sources said that they were short on uniforms and had a shabby appearance up through 1813.

With regard to the standards they carried I believe at Borodino they were carrying the old 1797 model flag but when they entered the guard in 1813 they were issued new flags.

This is an excellent site where the author has compiled tables giving details of facings, colours of flagstaffs etc: link

As many as you can paint?

Apparently, only the 1st battalion wore the famous mitre cap, with the cap being worn by the NCOs and officers of the 2nd battalion.

Only the 1st battalion wore the grenadier miters, but the others wore the shorter fusilier miters. And the 2nd, not the 3rd, would have been the depot battalion.

Terrment, That was the Pavlov units main weakness -- The French would ring a bell and the whole unit would become "shaken" as they began to salivate and drool.
regards
Russ Dunaway

I'm building my Russians (mostly) on Borodino, Two battalions on every OOB I've seen
1st Grenadier Division: MG Pavel Stroganov [18]

1st Brigade: Colonel Peter Zheltukhin II

Leib Grenadier Regiment (1st and 3rd battalions): Major Semen Demchenkov of the Pavlovsk GR.[19]

Count Arakcheyev GR (1st and 3rd battalions): Colonel Boris Knyazhnin II of the Life Guard Semeyonovsk Regiment.

2nd Brigade: MG Alexander Tsvilenev

Pavlovsk GR (1st and 3rd battalions): Colonel Yegor Richter (W).[20]

Yekaterinoslav GR (1st and 3rd battalions): Colonel Yegor Krishtafovich. (W)[21]

link

Nap Flags has a bunch of flags for all nations in the conflict. Russia here. link

They list the 1803 pattern as well as the earlier pattern from 1797(?).

In 1812-14, all the NCOs and enlisted men of all bns of the Pavlov regt wore mitre caps- but of two distinct patterns.
The men of the 'grenadier' company of each bn wore the taller grenadier mitre, which almost all figure manufacturers depict. The other three 'fusilier' companies of each bn wore the fusilier mitre, which had a shorter front plate and also lacked the coloured tuft at the top. Hardly any manufacturers produce figures wearing these shorter caps, despite them being worn by the majority of the unit.
Officers did not wear the mitre cap. Their regulation dress when appearing in the field with their men was an officer pattern shako. But many, as in all regts, would wear undress peaked caps or bicornes instead. Officers did not adopt the mitre till after the war c1825?

1st and 3rd were the field bns in 1812, 2nd was the depot bn. As mentioned above, the regt was elevated to guard status in early 1813 and therefore should have taken all three bns into the field, but several OOBs for battles in 1813 show the Pavlovs and Leib Grenadiers in the Guard but still with only 2 bns in line. Maybe the losses of 1812 and the general logistical difficulty in 1813 left them unable initially to get up to full Guards field strength?

1797 pattern flags for the Pavlovs in 1812-13. Can't remember when new Guard pattern flags were actually issued to the Pavlovs- maybe at the end of 1813. It's in Viskovatov somewhere!

Hardly any manufacturers produce figures wearing these shorter caps, despite them being worn by the majority of the unit.

Yes, I think that Warlord are a rare exception.

As an aside, I think that the Elite company of the 2nd Battalion was also in the field in 1812. I believe that they formed part of either 1st or 2nd Combined Grenadier Battalion of 1st Grenadier Division, which were part of the Foot Guard Division at Borodino.

Thank you Seneffe for you detailed and well articulated reply to my question.

My main reason for asking about the flag numbers, is the Pavlov Grenadiers manufactured by Wargames Foundry & sculpted by Alan Perry have a command pack with only one standard bearer.

I wondered if this was due to them perhaps only fielding one colour? GMB is my manufacturer of choice for colours and they're lovely I might add, and have 2 individual flags in the set. I suspect the single standard bearer in the WF pack is a packaging policy only.

The WF Pavlovs are for mine the best currently available in 28mm..