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"Perry Waterloo Vignette's French Trophies!" Topic


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Atheling21 May 2015 6:09 a.m. PST

This little beauty on the metals workbench:

Cheers,
Darrell.

Just Add Water Blog:
link
Gewalthaufen (Late 15th /Early 16th Century) Blog:
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk
La Journee (Early 15th Century Blog):
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Shooting Leave (Late Victorian Blog):
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Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2015 8:50 a.m. PST

Do C's Hussars? Never heard that before. Often heard they did not all flee the battle and that the residue were then later scattered amongst other units (eg Mercer's Brigade of RH Artillery).

Great animation and attention to detail. For example the NCO with the……… spontoon is it?…….. has his haversack over his left shoulder and on his right hip. Again, I live and I learn. This is proving a great series. I do hope they do well commercially………

bc174521 May 2015 9:22 a.m. PST

Nice set……

Which other allied colours were taken at Waterloo?
Bc1745

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2015 9:54 a.m. PST

If my memory serves me well, I believe the 69th Foot lost one or both colours at Quatre Bras.

bc174521 May 2015 12:17 p.m. PST

Ok so that's one at QB…..but what others at Waterloo?

And 5th KGL…….

Depending on the sources but most seem to agree no squares were broken on the allied side, what other opportunities allowed the French to capture allied colours…….

And how many…….?

Luneberg bttn outside la Haye Sainte?
Prussian?

Bc1745

wrgmr121 May 2015 1:12 p.m. PST

I don't recall any Prussian colors lost at Waterloo. Probably some at Ligny?

von Winterfeldt21 May 2015 1:44 p.m. PST

5 th KGL weren't in a square when the colour was captured.
Otherwise state of the art research – like the back pack

bc174521 May 2015 1:49 p.m. PST

From Google fu……napoleonic- series

link

'The question of the six colours taken at Waterloo was discussed at some length a couple of years ago. It is true that French writers, including Houssaye, usually claim six flags captured at Waterloo, but the identity of these is sometimes vague and confusing.

According to Houssaye they were deposited in Caillou Farm and abandoned but one of them (attributed to Fourier Palau – see serial 3 below) was later allegedly handed over to Grouchy's ADC on 26 June 1815 in Soissons but it subsequently disappeared without trace.

French total claims seem to have evolved as follows but I think there is some duplication here.

1. One flag from the Lüneberg battalion.
2. One flag from the 8th battalion KGL.
3. One English flag captured by Fourier Issac Palau from the 9th Cuirassiers in Milhaud's Corps. This was handed over to Grouchy's ADC on 26 June and a receipt written for it – "Recu un drapeau anglais pris ŕ la bataille de Waterloo par le 9e cuirassiers – ce 26 juin 1815 – pour le maréchal, aide de camp, de Lafontaine". The use of the term 'bataille de Waterloo' has been commented on since that was not the name by which the French called the battle.
4. One English flag captured by Marechal de Logis Gauthier of 10th Cuirassiers.
5. One 'Belgian' flag captured by Capitaine Klein de Kleinenberg of the Chasseurs ŕ Cheval, Imperial Guard. Klein's service record says – "eu un cheval tue sous lui dans un carré belge dont il ŕ enleve le drapeau le 18 juin 1815.".
6. One unidentified flag captured by the Chasseurs ŕ Cheval, Imperial Guard

So, there are three identified French units; 9th Cuirassiers, 10th Cuirassiers and the Chasseurs ŕ Cheval. Milhaud's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps, comprising 13th and 14th Cavalry divisions, was initially more or less opposite La Haie Sainte with the Guard light cavalry to its rear. 9th Cuirassiers and 10th Cuirassiers were in Brigade Vial and Brigade de Cruex respectively, of Delort's 14th Division. These units were all certainly in the vicinity of the units that definitely lost colours.

As far as British sources are concerned the losses comprised three colours all taken by cuirassiers.

A. The colour of the Lüneberg Feldbataillon.
B. The King's Colour 8th KGL. Ensign von Moreau who was carrying the King's Colour was wounded and handed it to a sergeant who was killed and the colour taken. The colour was later recovered by Hanoverian cavalry.
C. The King's Colour of 5th KGL. The ensign carrying the King's Colour was killed and the colour taken.

All these came from units of Alten's 3 Division which were also in the vicinity opposite La Haie Sainte on the British centre left. 5th and 8th KGL were in Ompteda's 2nd KGL Brigade, the Lüneberg Feldbataillon was in Kielmansegge';s 1st Hanoverian Brigade. All lost their colours during the fighting around La Haie Sainte in which Milhaud's IV Reserve Cavalry Corps was also involved.

It seems probable that Palau and Gauthier took the colours of 8th and 5th KGL, reported as 'English', which is reasonable enough, though who took which I have not been able to determine. I think, therefore, that the colours in French writing at serial 2 above and those at either serial 3 or 4 might be the same.

The so-called Belgian colour taken by Klein is a bit of a problem as the Dutch-Belgians had no colours so its true identity is a mystery but I think that serials 5 and 6 might also be the same.

If this is right we now have four colours.

1. One flag from the Lüneberg Feldbatallion.
2. One English flag captured by Fourier Issac Palau from the 9th Cuirassiers in Milhaud's Corps. Either 5th or 8th KGL.
3. One English flag captured by Marechal de Logis Gauthier of 10th Cuirassiers. Eother 5th or 8th KGL.
4. One unidentified colour captured by Capitaine Klein de Kleinenberg of the Chasseurs ŕ Cheval, Imperial Guard.'

From the site…….

bc174521 May 2015 1:52 p.m. PST

So is it the flag of the 5th or 8th KGL or is the vignette ment to represent either?
Regards
Chris

Lord Hill21 May 2015 3:40 p.m. PST

Wonderful figures. Thank you Alan and Michael!

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2015 11:35 p.m. PST

Great story of how this was retrieved by an English officer travelling through France at an obscure auction, many decades later;

link

Perrys clearly label it 5th KGL, but it could be this equally. I defy anyone to distinguish unpainted KGL line from "British" unit……….

Perry Miniatures22 May 2015 4:48 a.m. PST

Ah, well…. there is one way to distinguish them :) The unusual way the blanket is attached flat to the back of the knapsack was apparently only done by KGL battalions during the campaign… sorry deadhead :)

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP22 May 2015 4:52 a.m. PST

How impressed am I?………………Very! Sounds like a little bit of research went into these guys.

Ligniere Sponsoring Member of TMP22 May 2015 4:54 a.m. PST

Quite brilliant!!

Camcleod22 May 2015 6:41 a.m. PST

bc1745

Some of the Netherlandish Bns. did have un-official colours. Various letters refer to the 7th Line, 8th Militia and maybe the 5th Militia having colours.
See section 3.1 of the following article:
link

Also the colour of the 3rd bn./2nd Nassau was taken sometime during the campaign. It may be one from the list.

Cliff

bc174522 May 2015 7:00 a.m. PST

Cheers Cliff

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP22 May 2015 11:10 a.m. PST

Quite the vignette. Perhaps I'd base them up seperately,French Cuirassier and the 3 KGL soldiers, leaving the standard in the sergeant's hand, so they could be used as part of units in games.

Personal logo Dal Gavan Supporting Member of TMP22 May 2015 6:44 p.m. PST

G'day, wrgmr1.

I don't recall any Prussian colors lost at Waterloo. Probably some at Ligny?

The Prussians only lost three "official"* flags between 1808 and 1815. The 1st Silesian regiment lost both their colours at Vauchamps/Etoges on Valentine's Day 1814. The regiment did not gt new colours until after Waterloo. And the new colours were the new, standard, black cross-on-white 1810 Model, not the old crimson FR type that they'd lost.

The Brandenburg Kuerassiere also lost their flag, briefly, in 1813. It was recaptured by a couple of volunteer jaeger attached to the regiment, before the captors (32nd Legere, from memory) could get it away.

*Some of the Prussian "colours" that were supposedly captured by the French in 1813-14 may have been unofficial flags carried by Landwehr or Freikorps, before the order forbidding unofficial flags was posted in October 1813. More likely they were camp markers, town flags or similar, if not just outright imagination.

Hopefully HK-W or Oliver Schmidt will chime in as well.

Aethling, that vignette is brilliant! Sorry to partially hijack your thread.

Cheers.

Dal.

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