Tango01 | 19 May 2015 11:02 p.m. PST |
"* WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT * ISIS has 'surrounded' Iraqi capital and wants 'all-out war' with militia there * Battle between terror group and Shia fighters there would be 'utter carnage' * Islamic State seized strategic city of Ramadi just 60 miles west of Baghdad * Released sick images showing militants and children celebrating victory * 3,000 Shi'ite paramilitaries are now preparing to launch counter-offensive ISIS militants have held a twisted victory parade after taking the key city of Ramadi in an orgy of violence and beheadings – and the extremists could march on the Iraqi capital Baghdad within the next month. Mutilated bodies scatter the streets of the 'Gateway of Baghdad', where Islamic State slaughtered around 500 and forced nearly 25,000 to flee their homes over the last few days. Now ISIS has released images of militants celebrating, children wielding automatic weapons and a fleet of pick-up trucks carrying its jubilant fighters through the blood-stained streets of Ramadi. Shi'ite fighters have already launched a counter-offensive to recapture the city, but these kinds of tactics play straight into Islamic State's grand plan to spark all-out war in the region, according to the Middle East director of counter-terrorism think-tank RUSI…." Full article here link
Amicalement Armand |
Mako11 | 19 May 2015 11:42 p.m. PST |
Does seem like a target-rich environment for the A-10's GAU gatling gun. Supposedly, ISIS' last advance/major move was under cover of a dust storm, so they are learning to deal with our air power a bit. |
Whatisitgood4atwork | 20 May 2015 2:45 a.m. PST |
Perhaps we are trying to lull them into a false sense of security and waiting for a really big victory parade? |
Gaz0045 | 20 May 2015 3:06 a.m. PST |
The pictures of abandoned vehicles are reminiscent of Dunkirk and Saigon……is it a lack of training and a junior leadership problem in the Iraqi army? |
Cherno | 20 May 2015 5:31 a.m. PST |
is it a lack of training and a junior leadership problem in the Iraqi army?</< The army is rotten and corrupt to the core and has low morale because the troops don'T get enough food and ammo. |
Bangorstu | 20 May 2015 7:06 a.m. PST |
Soldiers are also not paid regularly and some of them have been fighting for 18 months solid. |
paulgenna | 20 May 2015 7:29 a.m. PST |
It's their country and they should be fighting for their families. This is why the Iraqi army will never win. |
Bangorstu | 20 May 2015 7:52 a.m. PST |
Well up until now they'd been doing a fair bit of winning – ISIS hasn't done much for a while and it's not all been the Kurds and Iranian militias. But every army has its breaking point – and I think the best of the Iraqi Army might have reached theirs. Remember even the Germans cracked eventually. |
Legion 4 | 20 May 2015 8:57 a.m. PST |
Wow ! That is a great target ! A big column of DaeshBags driving down the road ! I'd think possibly no strikes went in for fear of collateral damage ? However, I would have "taken the shot … ", regardless … But we found out from captured intel from UBL, and others, etc. … It didn't take them long to learn to move when weather conditions were poor for aircraft/drones, etc. … And not to move in such large target rich columns, etc. … Like the WWII Germans learned. Allied airpower limited large German formations moving up roads it broad daylight, etc. … And they started the Ardennes Offensive in weather where almost all Allied aircraft were grounded. Everything old is new again. paulgenna It's their country and they should be fighting for their families. This is why the Iraqi army will never win. Sorry stu, I have to agree with paul. Plus the Iraqi Army has had too many tactical losses, and lost too much ground and equipment to Daesh. And we could only have hoped the Iraqis fought anywhere nearly as effective as the WWII Germans, before they broke. Daesh would be on the run, severely attrited and we'd be lauding the Iraqi performance, etc. … |
Legion 4 | 20 May 2015 9:01 a.m. PST |
is it a lack of training and a junior leadership problem in the Iraqi army? That is only small part of the problem. But the US and others have and are training the Iraqis … again … So I don't see that as a big problem. As one GW1 Vet I was talking to recently said, no matter how much you train them they still are cowards. As I said on another thread. Sectarian violence is probably one of the overriding concerns … One of the reasons Daesh got so many local Sunni joining is because of the Shia lead Iraqi gov't went old school and decided to get paybeck on the Sunnis be more important than actually creating a multi-lateral gov't … Again old hatreds and bad blood … |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 20 May 2015 9:43 a.m. PST |
Different theatre but I read a quote by a South African PMC who was training Nigerian 72 Strike Force. He stated that American and European advisors trained the Nigerians to lose. Not sure what that meant but I found it interesting. This made me think about Pollack' s book Arabs at War and some DoD courses I took about Arab culture and superior/subordinate relationships. Makes me wonder if a different approach to training Iraqi forces could have yielded a better result…probably not. |
Legion 4 | 20 May 2015 10:03 a.m. PST |
He stated that American and European advisors trained the Nigerians to lose. Not sure what that meant but I found it interesting. Yes, I too wonder what he meant ? Makes me wonder if a different approach to training Iraqi forces could have yielded a better result…probably not.
I'd have to agree … In both cases, the US and Euros, would train those forces, in weapons, small unit tactics, fieldcraft, etc. … all things the basic soldier needs on the battlefield. Stuff out of the RANGER Handbook, etc. ,etc. … Plus train the higher leadership in not only the priniciples of modern combined arms mobile warfare, in the case of the Iraqis possibly. But dismounted Infantry operations, in various environs, COIN, etc., etc. … How would that train them to lose or what approach you take to train them because they are not from the West ? |
Tango01 | 20 May 2015 11:34 a.m. PST |
I have doubts they are cowards. In battle, there are many things that get you down… Morale is a great factor. Food is another one. Support from your officers too. Just from my little experience. (smile) Amicalement Armand |
Bangorstu | 20 May 2015 12:48 p.m. PST |
Tango – at least they, unlike you, have decent weather… |
Tango01 | 20 May 2015 11:35 p.m. PST |
Oh!. I don't want to remember the weather!! Worst you can imagin! Half of my Company suffered for trench foot (me also). Lack of water is also a big problem. Amicalement Armand |
Supercilius Maximus | 21 May 2015 3:21 a.m. PST |
This man seemed to have a pretty good handle in how to train and lead Arab forces – I wonder if anyone involved in training the Iraqis now has read any of his books? link |
Legion 4 | 21 May 2015 8:38 a.m. PST |
I have doubts they are cowards.
You abandon, drop your weapons, run away in battle … you are a coward. You retreat, withdraw, fallback, in order or even disorder. You don't drop your weapons and abandon vehicles, etc. … You may still live to fight another day, when the situation is better or more in your favor. Any Infantrymen, Tankers, Gunners, etc. knows that … |
Bangorstu | 21 May 2015 8:44 a.m. PST |
Tango – actually I live in the bit of the UK which the British use to train for harsh environments. I get over 2000mm of rain a year hear. Whereas I don't doubt it's a lot colder down there, I have some idea – two winters ago we were running at a 120kph storm a week for two months – the Atlantic was in a tetchy mood. And hence you have my sincerest sympathy…. I can honestly say however that lack of water is never, ever an issue in Wales however. Getting back to the current situation – I agree it's bad when soldiers abandon kit, especially if they don't destroy it first. Obviously the army has issues. The Iraqis can fight, it's just making them feel comfortable fighting for the army. Interestingly, I've heard on the BBC that the operational cadre of ISIS are ex Republican Guard who turned to radical Islam when made redundant. Which might explain the fact they seem to have some sort of actual ability. |
Tango01 | 21 May 2015 11:08 a.m. PST |
Thanks for your understanding my friend Bangorstu. For make it worst, many of our soldiers belong from our jungle zone! (North of Argentina)so there was their first experience of how real cold weather was! (smile). One of the finest thing our CC made was to keep in the Continent the troops with winter training and put in the Islands those who were training for Jungle warfare. (!!) Exception for the Marine Infantry which I have the honor to fight with. Oh!. What good equipment they have!. My friend Legion 4… about cowards, well I remember now that we run … and we run a LOT… but still with our firearms… No ammo because we have not anymore… I still remember that in some ocations we send rocks against the english advance mixed with grenades trying to stop them (last day of battle). BUT… mostly of our rank officers (From Captain to up) really lost their equipment to run faster!. I also see that. Yes, you are right, we run, but still fight next hours/day. Amicalement Armand |
Bangorstu | 21 May 2015 12:02 p.m. PST |
Now that shows the Universal Military Mind at its finest – I think the Russians invaded Finland with troops from warm climates as well… I was at school during the Falklands – all of 11 years old and using the islands as a means of learning longitude and latitude in maths lessons. And during that time obviously we had a somewhat biased press but I can assure you of one thing. I have never heard the Argentinians been referred to as cowards. It takes all kinds – personally I cease functioning in temperatures much over 20 Celsius… Which is perhaps something we don't reflect in our rules (see, I made a wargaming comment!) – troops unacclimatised to the conditions in which they're fighting. |
Legion 4 | 21 May 2015 3:01 p.m. PST |
I respect your opinion and experience Tango ! Running out of ammo and falling back, quickly, is not being a coward. It is living to fight another day … It's too bad you didn't have better officers who made sure you got resupplied and didn't drop their gear and run. I believe at Ft. Benning, The Infantry School, we'd call that a leadership failure. Among other things … But I'm glad that both sides in that conflict didn't suffer anymore losses than they did … As both are friends of the US. May they all RIP … As far as operating in cold weather, after 2 winters in the ROK, with 30-40 degrees F at times … I have had my fill of really Cold weather. But I've operated in the jungles of Panama and the High Desert of the West. It's all part of being a soldier … and you are expected to do your jobs, regardless. Don't know which I dislike more ? Freezing cold with wind and snow. The hot dusty and dry desert with no shade in sight. Or the hot, humid jungle literally alive with every sort of flora and fauna. Some of which does not like you being on their turf … |
Tango01 | 21 May 2015 3:34 p.m. PST |
Thanks for understand boys! (smile) Still remember that my jacket have inscriptions at the back saying it was for Vietnam in 1975!. So, our material was not very good! (smile) We alwas envy the Marines infantry materials. They have so good clothes and arms!. Some of our NCO tried to steal some of them. Steal was other bad problem there. You have to steal if you want ot eat, wash, clothed etc. Amicalement Armand |
Silurian | 21 May 2015 4:53 p.m. PST |
The shade of brown most of their trucks have been painted in is a pretty good match to the terrain. |
coopman | 21 May 2015 5:17 p.m. PST |
You must understand that our planes were in another area bombing climate change, the REAL ENEMY. |
Weasel | 21 May 2015 8:38 p.m. PST |
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Martin From Canada | 21 May 2015 9:54 p.m. PST |
I'm just going to add my two cents here, but look at the Army of South Vietnam. Did very poorly against their Northern brethren, but fought like lions when then went toe to toe against the Chinese over a bunch of barren rocks called Paracel Islands in 1974. As for coopman, it's a passing shot at Obama and his Coast Guard Academy commencement speech.
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goragrad | 21 May 2015 10:56 p.m. PST |
Some ARVN unit also fought like lions against the NVA. As to the OP, the Air Force may have already performed their quota of airstrikes for the day… |
Bangorstu | 22 May 2015 2:59 a.m. PST |
Others here know far more I, but getting a bunch of men to fight depends on a lot of imponderables. In the case of the Argentinians on the Falklands, from what I remember they were poorly supplied, bloody miserable and deeply unenthusiastic at the prospect of dying for a wind-blasted bit of moorland which they'd already seen far too much of – especially if the officers weren't sharing the same discomforts as Tango alludes to. I don't doubt that had we invaded Argentina, the result would have been much more like the last time we tried it… In the case of the Iraqis, they're well equipped, but not being paid or fed and probably more worried about their families elsewhere. Because they know for a fact that while they're in, say Ramadi, it's not like the army is going to keep ISIS out of whatever place they're from. Hence an understandable desire to perhaps go home and join the local militia who will actually stand their ground. It is, I'm afraid a bloody mess. |
Tango01 | 22 May 2015 11:03 a.m. PST |
Well… I have to said that "moral" was the only support we have there. For "moral" I consider that every single recruit knows why we were there and that this piece of terrain belongs to our country. SAYING THAT ONLY AS EXPLANATION… NOT TO BEGIN A WAR HERE AGAIN TO WHOM BELONGS THE ISLANDS!!! PLEASE!. When the ranking British officers ask the question if we would fight or not (under the same considerations you have detailed and I confirmed / aggregate the answer was yes, without doubt. Even with no pay, ammo, water, food, logistic, bad ranking officers, etc etc etc. Why?. We were no heroes… not great soldiers… we were only armed citizens defending our Fatherland. AGAIN… PLEASE, THIS IS NOT A POSTURE… ONLY WHAT WE THINK AND FEEL THERE in 1982 FROM OUR SIDE. Final example… there were not a single deserter in any of the defensive positions even when we know that the british would kick our asses in question of hours… Well… they were… the ranking officers!!! (hope they burn in hell forever!) Any of your fellow countrymen who fought there can confirm this. Amicalement Armand |
Bangorstu | 22 May 2015 11:35 a.m. PST |
Tango – I'll not start a flame war, I understand how you'll see things and it will be directly opposite to mine. I can understand that you thought that you were defending home turf. To be honest, given the situation as you detailed it, it's a miracle you did as well as you did – the lack of ammunition I can only put down the the fact the high command didn't expect any retaliation and neglected to stock up before the islands were cut off. Given the state of the UK at the time, I can understand that, but it's hardly good generalship. If it's any consolation, I'm a good friend of someone whose Dad was in charge of Latin American intelligence before the war…and who was called back during it. We were, at times, equally incompetent. I think however we were lucky to cram all of our particular screw-ups in the period BEFORE the shooting started… Suffice to say the whole sorry, tragic affair shouldn't have come as a surprise and was all too easily avoided. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2015 4:05 p.m. PST |
I'm just going to add my two cents here, but look at the Army of South Vietnam. Did very poorly against their Northern brethren, but fought like lions when then went toe to toe against the Chinese over a bunch of barren rocks called Paracel Islands in 1974. link And in '79 … but by then they were all just Vietnamese … link As for coopman, it's a passing shot at Obama and his Coast Guard Academy commencement speech.
Yes … well any further comments on this could get one DH'd … |
Tango01 | 22 May 2015 11:42 p.m. PST |
Thanks again for your understand my friend. Amicalement Armand |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 6:36 a.m. PST |
Legion 4, you wrote: "You abandon, drop your weapons, run away in battle … you are a coward." Sorry, but that is nonsense; everyone has a breaking point and reaching it does not mean that person is a coward. Have you ever been in extended and fierce combat? Tango01, you wrote that there were no deserters; that is not quite true, is it? While some of your colleagues did fight, and fought well, many others did not and abandoned their positions before being contacted. |
Tgunner | 23 May 2015 7:15 a.m. PST |
I've seen the Iraqi's in battle and was unimpressed. The folks we fought in '91 were poorly trained and led. They broke quickly and ran/surrendered. The guards were sterner stuff. They fought and died in place, but they were the true believers. I'm guessing that's what we're seeing here. The Iraqi Army grunts are more of the same: poorly trained, poorly led, and not there to do much more than collect a check and be fed. ISIS seems to have the more motivated former regime types who have a horse in the race. Sadly, air assets just aren't cutting it. |
Bangorstu | 23 May 2015 7:33 a.m. PST |
The be fair to the Iraqis in 1991 they had been bombed for weeks before the ground troops went in and probably had a shrewd idea of how good their kit was compared to what they were facing. As I've mentioned before, the ISIS commanders are, apparently, ex Republican Guard who have turned to radical Islam. |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 9:21 a.m. PST |
I suspect that Tgunner has it about right. I missed out on Granby, but was involved in Safe Haven in 1991 and the little that I saw of the Iraqi army did not impress me at all. Motivation is the key factor in the current situation; as with all religious nutters, IS are highly motivated and more than willing to do whatever is necessary to win, while the Iraqi army are firstly demotivated because of the enemy's ferocity and viciousness and secondly lack any real cause for which to fight. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 11:04 a.m. PST |
Sorry, but that is nonsense; everyone has a breaking point and reaching it does not mean that person is a coward. Have you ever been in extended and fierce combat? No, Thank God I have not ! And I doubt many here have. Regardless, maybe it is because of how I was trained and indoctinated, etc. … However, it seems to me, again based on my passed experience, etc., that dropping your weapon and running away is completely foreign to me in my mind. Motivation is the key factor in the current situation;
That is a key factor in many situations … But in my mind survival of you and your comrades should trump many things. And again, IMO, dropping your weapons and running away does not seem to me to be a good way to enhance your chances of survival. As I have said before, even if you are unarmed and captured by Daesh. You'll be lucky to just get a bullet to the back of the head. Iraqi army did not impress I suspect whether one has dealt with the Iraqi Army directly or just studied their checkered "resume'" … They appear for whatever reasons to be less than stellar soldiers. Which as many have said here is what also can be said about many in the region. I suspect that Tgunner has it about right. I have to agree also … again based on everything I've seen or read … And most importantly Tgunner was there, so his opinion is certainly valid and reliable … |
NavyVet | 23 May 2015 11:07 a.m. PST |
Arabs just don't make good soldiers. Maybe it's cultural but recent history proves the point. Even the Republicn Guards in the end could not stand up to a trained western military. I would bet you that ISIL would suffer the same fate. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 11:14 a.m. PST |
I have to agree totally. Especially if the US/West were commited to a total war. And yes, there would be a lot of collateral damage. But because we are concerned about that. Daesh, AQ, etc. "hides" behind that concern. As well as any civilains they can find … But it's the classic insurgent warfare paradigm. |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 11:20 a.m. PST |
Legion 4, If you have not, you are not in a position to judge those who have been in combat. You actually have no idea how you would react to the stress of combat, especially if you were a badly led, badly paid, badly fed and badly equipped soldier fighting for a cause that you did not really believe in facing a highly motivated enemy that has a reputation for utter savagery towards prisoners. |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 11:26 a.m. PST |
NavyVet, I suspect that many of the reasons are indeed cultural and linked to the extremely hierarchical nature of Arab society. Add in a mix of a lack of equipment, poor training, rampant corruption and staggeringly poor leadership and you have a recipe for failure. However, it is not always the case that the Arabs are bad fighters, or even bad soldiers. Both Lawrence and Glubb seem to have known how to get the best out of them. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 11:48 a.m. PST |
Londongamer … you are correct … I can't argue with you on that … Regardless, based on my passed experience, etc., I am entitled to an opinion. Many here express opinions and they have little to no military experience, etc. … So you may find my opinion worthless. But if we didn't express opinions for the sake of dicussion, to exchange ideas, experiences, etc., then there would be no reason to post. Some comments may be deemed worth more than others, based on a number of factors. |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 12:08 p.m. PST |
Legion 4, Certainly you have a right to an opinion. However, you made an absolute statement about anyone who drops their weapon and runs being a coward, I was pointing out that there are reasons other than cowardice why men might do that and that your subsequent statement about how foreign such an action would be to you was based on you never having experienced sustained combat so you could not really know that it was foreign to you. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 12:37 p.m. PST |
You are correct … and I stand corrected … I guess I am frustrated a bit with the entire situation. Both your and my country spent so much blood and treasure in Iraq [and Afghanistan for that matter], that it seems such a waste sometimes. And I hate to see Daesh driving around in former US vehicles, etc. … vehicles that were abandoned, etc. … Was hoping after all the time [and $$$] our countries expended trying to get the Iraqis to fight and defend their own territory … Again I stand corrected … |
Londongamer | 23 May 2015 1:18 p.m. PST |
Legion 4, I find it very hard to be frustrated or angry with the Iraqi military for their failures. I do feel that the whole situation is the fault of, initially, Britain and France for creating a country by drawing lines on a map with no regard to ethnic, tribal or religious boundaries, and, secondly, of Bush and Blair for invading Iraq and creating the utter chaos that has resulted in the current situation. In my opinion, it would have been better if we had not invaded and overthrown the Saddam regime in 2003 and later gone on to support the "Arab Spring" and its various offshoots. Among other things, the former destroyed the structure of the Iraqi state and increased sectarianism, while the latter assisted the rise of IS. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 8:12 p.m. PST |
Yes, unfortunately the lines drawn on the map by long dead Euro statesmen after WWI. With only their own needs in mind as opposed to what was actually on the ground. Started it … I have said that before here on TMP. Plus in hindsight, I also said, the US made 2 stategic errors, IMO. 1) Supporting the Muj vs. the USSR. They should have been left to bleed each other out on their own. 2) GWII … as we see Saddam was lesser of evils. But again hindsight is 20/20. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 8:16 p.m. PST |
Now on a lighter note, I think I noticed something on this thread "Cultural disconnect? Or just short term statistical?" TMP link That as, was it Shaw or Kipling who said, something like, "We are the same, but separated by a common language." Or something like that. I observed that sometime some Brits take things a little "too literally" with some general broad statements I and other Yanks say. And I find myself having to respond with an "if" or "however" or "possibly", "save for", etc. to maybe clarify or add detail to the initial statement. Where as the statement was a generaliztion, etc. … For example, when I said about them being cowards by dropping their guns and running. Well yes, based on my military training and study of histroy. That is generally considered an act of cowardice. But yes, many factors can come into play when soldiers drop guns and run away. But I didn't think it was needed to list all the reasons why. We just know the outcome. "You abandon, drop your weapons, run away in battle … you are a coward."Sorry, but that is nonsense; everyone has a breaking point and reaching it does not mean that person is a coward. Have you ever been in extended and fierce combat? That was londongamer's thoughtful reply to my post. Now, We are all students of history and many of us are Vets. We all know about this sort of topic. Plus as I noted, very few here have been in extented fierce combat. Fallujah or Ramadi in GWII comes to mind. Before that Mogadishu, Khe Sahn, Hamburger Hill, etc. … None of those took place on US soil. They were many miles away from home. Fighting for their own survival. My point being the Iraqis were locals and they broke and ran. Regardless again, the factors that came about to make this happen. My statement was again opinion based of a general knowledge of Infantry/combined arms warfare. And again broad general statements. And I again thank God, I was never in a situation such as those battles. |
tuscaloosa | 23 May 2015 8:48 p.m. PST |
Tango01, I always enjoy reading your discussions of personal military experience, thank you. How amusing to see posters blithely state that Arabs in general, and Iraqis specifically, are poor soldiers. After they spent an entire decade conducting an insurgency which tied up my Army, supposedly the best funded and most advanced in the world, up in knots for about 1/100th the cost. There are none so blind as those who will not see [shakes head]. |
Legion 4 | 23 May 2015 9:05 p.m. PST |
Good points … but that was then … this in now, yes ? The Iraqis ran a generally successful insurgency after Saddam's defeat. Why are they not running an insurgency similar to what Daesh is doing ? Without the medieval barbarity of course. A taste of their own medicine so to speak. Like the US SF and 'yards in Vietnam against the VC and NVA. … What are we not seeing here ? |
Tango01 | 23 May 2015 10:28 p.m. PST |
"Tango01, you wrote that there were no deserters; that is not quite true, is it? While some of your colleagues did fight, and fought well, many others did not and abandoned their positions before being contacted" I cannot speak about the whole forces in the Islands, but were I was I never saw a "deserter" before battle. Where do you think you can go if you abandon your position in that open plane?. Run to Puerto Argentino (Port Stanley)? I never hear or see in my personal experience people who did that. I confirm you that the ranking officers were who abandon their posts. ALL of them!! If you are talking when our lines were broken… this is other history… but before the combat nobody left his post without permision. Amicalement Armand |