"Looking at naval gaming, need advice please" Topic

Hi all, Looking for a complete sea change! I want to have a go at naval gaming, WW2 era. I love the 1/2400 stuff but can't get my head around the distance on the table thing, it needs to look right for me. 1/3000 and 1/6000 to small so I'm looking at 1/4800 scale. I see Shapeways and cinc do some RM and KM models, are there any 'close up' pictures to give me some idea of the detail and as for a simple ship v ship set of rules what would you recommend?
Many thanks for the help.

Mike

1:3000 is bigger than 1:4800, and has probably the largest selection of models available. 1:4800 is quite limited.

For good simple rules I really like Task Force by Ben King:

link

The scale and mechanics are described here:

link

Good old General Quarters aka GQ are a great set to start with. If you are that bothered by "realistic" distances then you have no choice but to do 1:6000, which I think are quite expensive because you must buy sets of ships. Otherwise-1:2400 or its cheaper cousin, 1:3000. The Viking Forge have very decent 1:2400 at a fair price, although limited selection…but might be good to do an inexpensive trial game with. NavWar are the 1:3000 kings- cheap but only with OK detail. GHQ are the best 1:2400 but fairly pricey. As Dexter said, 1:4800 is limited. Hope that helps.

In my experience, for conflicts from 1900 on, smaller miniatures are better. The bigger ones are prettier, but the gun ranges of ships becomes so great that you need a huge table to do justice to the larger miniatures. Even if you have a big budget, think about whether you have the space. For Age of Sail or ironclads, I'd go bigger for the added eye-candy.

I've just started on the same route myself. Guys at my club all play General Quarters.

Most of the ships they use are Navwar in 1/3000. I think they look great!

I've just ordered some Mike Yarrow 1/3000 ships, Navwar and Tumbling Dice 1/600 aircraft for air cover, torpedo runs etc.

Navwar have an archaic ordering system, but both themselves and M.Y. are very cheap. Browse Ebay too!

Navwar also has the earlier editions of General Quarters for sale on their website for £4.99 GBP (so don't go buying ebay copies for £££££/$$$$ as some do). Guys on TMP Marketplace sometimes sell them here for good prices. The new edition (3) is a bit pricey, but the website resources you unlock through Old Dominion are remarkable!!

To see what 1/6000 looks like, "Bozkashi Jones" has posted some very nice looking AARs recently, showing his 1/6000. On a per-ship basis, 1/6000 is the least expensive, but has better detail than most 1/3000 of twice the size. If you dislike bases for ships, 1/6000 requires that the DDs be removed from cast-on bases, which is time-consuming (see this thread TMP link , near the bottom).

There is quite a bit of 1/4800 on Shapeways if you are willing to put up with the disadvantages of the FUD material. Otherwise, you must use the nice 1/4800 CinC metal castings of selected British and German WWII, or MY Miniatures mostly crude metal castings. "Roe Tengco's" 1/4800 Shapeways line includes just about all of the Japanese, US, French, and Italian WWII fleets, and supplementary British to fill in the gaps in the metal CinC range. He also sells individually printed 1/4800 aircraft (…). The newer Shapeways FXD material (which I haven't yet tried) doubles the resolution in one of the 3 axes, and may therefore reduce the objectionable "grain" seen with the older FUD material. See the Yahoo 1/4800 group for images of painted and unpainted 1/4800 link . When looking at images of Roe's 1/4800 designs, be sure you are looking at an actual printout, rather than a 3D computer rendering.

Some disadvantages of the Shapeways FUD material I have noticed personally are the wax covering, warping issues, the grain issue, and fragility. The first can be dealt with by soaking in Bestine (heptane); the second by checking for warped printouts when received and returning same; the third possibly by the new "FXD" material, and the fourth by being very careful with the printouts, and by not exposing them to UV radiation before priming and painting.

Mark H.

Many thanks everyone, some great advice, I am spoiled for choice here, I love the detail on the GHQ 1/2400 stuff, Oh I just don't know, I'm a modeller as well as gamer so like the thought of them, but I have a 8 x 5 foot table, decent size but Hood and Bismark….? Hinds, hear what you say, had some tanks in the materiel, not sure I like the finish.
I'll have a look at Bozcashi Jones's stuff. I don't mind the prices too much not so much looking at fleet actions but 2 – 3 ships per side stuff, anyway thanks again all,appreciate the help, off to look…….

Hi Mike

I'm being won over by 1:6000 as the distances just look 'right' (even though they're not), but I'm still drawn to 1:2400 for smaller actions as I enjoy the modelling side too. For ease, here are the links to a couple of my AARs featuring the Hallmark ships…

First the Denmark Strait action:

TMP link

And the action off Lofoten, which features the tiny DDs:

TMP link

And thanks for the compliment Mark

Best wishes,

Nick

Hmmm; apparently you have to "join" the 1/4800 Yahoo group to see the images. If you apply today, he (Robert) will probably have approved you by tomorrow at the latest. Here's an image of a 1/4800 Shapeways printout of the large French DD Mogador, which I bought several years ago. BTW, the warp returned after several months …

WRT table size, your 8x5 foot table won't work too well with 1/2400. I have used 1/2400 for small battles, but I have a 7x8 foot table.

I use the General Quarters Part 1 (GQ-1) naval rules, which though 35 years old are IMHO still the most cost-effective (realism-per-complexity) set available. I add to these the minor but recommended WW2 modifications available in General Quarters Part 2 (GQ-2). The former is available from Navwar link , but the latter is hard to find. If you can't find GQ-2, you could probably PM a fellow hobbyist to photocopy the GQ-2 sections which upgrade the GQ-1 WW2 rules.

General Quarters Third Edition (GQ-3) is the new version of this rule set, and is available from ODGW odgw.com/home.html. This is also a good rule set, but although I own it, I personally prefer to play the earlier versions. It is in some ways more complex, and is much more chart-heavy.

There is a General Quarters Yahoo Group still active. link

Mark H.

Thanks Mark, yes did look at the 1/4800 site and as you say it's by invitation.I've trawled the site and had a good look to see what people can do with models. WW2 Central. now he's something else, I beleive he must have contacts with the dark arts to produce the excellence that he does, truly amazing Mr. Tanner!I think the best way forward is to send for various samples and scales, I agree re the 1/2400 as much as I like them, the table is too smallso I think 1/6000 and 1/4800 and see how I like them, thanks again all regarding the rules I'll have a more in depth look at them tomorrow.
Mike

Oh Lordy, just seen Shapeways 1/1800 stuff what IS a man supposed to do………..?

I have to chime in to say that I find the GQ3 system to NOT be "chart heavy" at all. I have been running WWI games at the HMGS conventions using Fleet Action Imminent (FAI) for a few years now. FAI is the GQ3 adaptation for WWI. I give each participant only two pieces of paper. One is the gunnery chart that is specific to the navy they are playing, the other is the ship log for the ship, or ships, that they control.

The gunfire section of the gunnery page only takes up the top section of the page. Below that are three small, simple charts for gunnery dammage, citical hits, and repair rolls. The page also has the Mine and Torpedo Damage chart and the Torpedo CRT charts. All that on just one page! Many times I do not need the Mine and Torpedo charts at all depending on the scenario being played. All the charts are cleverly colored by sections to make them easy to read and use.

The second piece of paper has the ship logs. Each ship is represented by a small chart that is only about 1X3 inches on the page. They are also have colored sections that make them easy to use.

Yes, there are many other charts provided, such as dark acquistion, aircraft, anti-aircraft, mines, acoutics, etc, etc. But unless you are attempting some sort of highly focused scenario that needs to use those things, you will never use them. I have never needed to use any of them, they are just there in case someone out there wants to incorporate them.

The best thing is that game turns move quickly, we can always get to a clear outcome, and everyone is happy with the game once it is over.

Williamtheconker:

Remember, 1/1800 is a *larger* scale than 1/2400, and remember that 8x5 foot table…

bwanabill:

Note that the operative word in my GQ-3 comment is "more", and that I am comparing GQ-3 to GQ-1/GQ-2, and not to SeeKreig or whatever. The earlier versions of GQ have the same advantages you quote for GQ-3, but to an even greater degree. When I do a GQ-1/GQ-2 game, I have 3 pieces of paper on the table: a sheet with the side A SDSs, a sheet with the side B SDSs, and a single sheet with the charts. I also only need 3 dice.

MH

Oh Mark, I know they're bigger, talk about drool though lol! I think I'm leaning toward 1/3000 must be sensible and remember 'that table' Ha!
Will probably send for some samples tomorrow, still looking at all the rule choices though, something that is fairly representative but not so you're bogged down with 30 seconds of movement and 10 minutes of chart work.
Am certainly looking at GQ rules.

Mike

Can't go too far wrong with GQ3 (or GQ1/2, assuming you can find them. At last check GQ1 is still available from NavWars, but GQ2 is no longer in print, but does show up on the secondary market). Both give good quick games. And are NOT chart heavy.

Can't go wrong with 1:3000 either – cheap and cheerful. I got pretty much all I needed for the Med for less than £40.00 GBP – $50 USD-60? trouble is you get a lot of metal so it takes yonks to paint!

Nice thing about 1:3000 is the range – I quite like plausible 'what ifs' between minor navies and Navwar have pretty much everything

So, I've been a very bad boy!………a very very bad boy, listened to all the advice……then ordered 8 GHQ 1/2400 ships this morning!!! 3 RN, a capitol ship, a cruiser and some destroyers, Ditt with Italians and I ordered 2 Battleships, one IJN and the other USN! Bad, bad boy lol! now just trying to get GQ1 rules.

Mike

So am I missing something? Am I right in saying I have to send the order to Navwar by post and send a cheque? Don't even own a cheque book anymore?

Mike

When I have ordered from NAVWAR I used the order form. I put my credit card info on it and faxed it to him. Or you can mail it to him. Its been a while since I've placed an order, but I have never had a problem and I have not had to wait long to get the products, even though I do not live in the UK.

I also really think you would be happy with GQ3. Why use set of rules that aren't used much anymore and are hard to find? GQ3 is well constructed, well written, and makes for interesting reading since it provides historical rationale for many of the mechanics of the rules. There are supporting downloads on the ODGW website for those that purchase, and good product support through the forum. I have no commercial interest either.

bwanabill, good point, I'll look at GQ3, any idea where I can purchase these from, is there a pdf version?
Many thanks,

Mike

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bwanabill, good point, I'll look at GQ3, any idea where I can purchase these from, is there a pdf version?

Get them from here, or your LHS: odgw.com/home.html You will need a number of D12s (7+) from somewhere, in addition to the usual D6s and other stuff.

There is a PDF version.

MH

That's right, the company that sells GQ3 and FAI is Old Dominion Game Works. You can order either hard copy or .pdf. Either way, you will recieve a numeric key that gives you access to the download files.

Thanks for all the help guys,

Mike

GQ3 ordered

Mike

Help again please. ordered GQ3 from old dom, had a message to say that account is active, any idea how long it takes before i can download the rules, it's been over 24hours, just asking in case I'm doing something wrong!

You should be able to download it immediately. I bought mine in my LHS and had to "register", but I would assume that if you bought it directly, you would already be registered. So go to the ODGW site at odgw.com/home.html :

1) Log in
2) Go to "Downloads"
3) Go to "Private Access Library"
4) Go to "General Quarters 3"
5) Click on the "Custom" button, and sort the huge number of files to show the max allowed per page.
6) Go the to entry " General Quarters 3.3 TOTAL Download", which in I found on page 3 of the listings.
7) Download.

Mark H.

Hi mark, many thanks, well I've downloaded the thing but I've no idea where it is! Being a simple minded fellow, I assumed it would have gone to my email address but nothing seems as simple as that! So sorry to have to ask again but is there somewhere else it goes to and THEN I download it to my email address ?
Mike

Hi William,

Mine appeared straightaway as 'GQ3' in my Downloads folder on my PC. Whenever I downloaded the scenario books etc they all appeared in the same place (usually with the GQ3 prefix).

Just open the file with Adobe PDF reader etc. Should be fine.

Many thanks, seems I'm doomed at the moment, computed has just died so trying to do things offy phone. I'll need to get the thing fixed then I'll check it, thanks again

Hi Mike (aka williamtheconker),

Your Web Browser software running on your PC will download the file to a default location, probably on one of your hard drives, which you will have to find. This location depends on your Operating System and your latest personal settings. On my Linux system, it goes to a Directory/Folder called "Downloads". I have never encountered a web site which implemented downloads via email, although this is technically possible if they have your email address.

BTW, if your PC is temporarily down, you can always log in to ODGW using a friend's PC or one in a Public Library. IIRC, they allow you to download a file more than once. Just be sure to bring something to copy the file to, like a USB memory stick. Also, bring your ODGW User Name and Password.

Mark H.

Can't thank you enough Mark for the help. Should get computer back and fixed early next week so will have a gander then, again, many thanks.
Mike

Well managed to download it (thanks Mark) printed it yesterday oh my lord it's like War and Peace! Lol got some reading to do. Ships have arrived as well, superb stuff, thanks MM and GHQ
Mike

For one-off surface actions, most of the GQ-3 rules aren't needed, so it's much simpler than it looks.

You might also consider ordering GQ-1 from Navwar in parallel. That gives you the option of either using GQ-3, or using GQ-1 and modifying it (which is what I did). At minimum, for GQ-1, I would double the movement allowance and substitute in the GQ-2 modified charts. I made additional mods to the charts to correspond to immune zone info from my naval library. Note that for this second scenario, GQ-3 (or any other more complex rule set) can function as a toolkit of additional mod ideas.

MH

Hi Guys, well managed some ships, put some pictures on the gallery and also this site, thanks again for the help ( still reading the rules lol!)

Mike

( still reading the rules lol!)

You've probably played other rulesets and other types of wargaming, so this advice may not be needed at all, but …

I have often found that no matter how many times I read a new ruleset, I won't actually get a feel for how the rules work unless I put some miniatures on a table and do some of the things the rules describe. Even if I don't play out a full game, just measuring a move (with turn-rates, etc.), adjudicating some firing, and then going through the turn sequence from start to finish makes all the difference in the world. At least for me.

BTW there is usually a lot of help available on the ODGW forums for any questions on the rules.

Hope that helps.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Thanks Mark, yep, just concentrating on the basic game rules at the mo, will use the others as and when needed.

Mike

Her is my two cents worth on Naval gaming. My group here in Northern Indiana uses two different sets depending on battle.

1.) GQ3 is a good mid level of detail system. great for larger battles consisting of more than 6 to 8 ships per side.

2.) Seekrieg 5 which in my opinion is my favorite an best set out there. The detail is the most realistic out there, that I have played bar none. It looks a little overwhelming at first with all the charts, but I have taught the rules to many new players an with in a few rounds they have it down. The only draw back is that the size of the battles needs to stay down to one or two three at the most ships per player.

Scale we play with is 1/2400 large selection, we also dabble with 1/1250 scale once in a while just for the visual.

here is another thing we do once a year, which is fun an easy to do. We do a BB gun naval game. How it works is you have the ships on the game board moving around etc. etc. then when its time to shoot, we take a bb gun an shot at paper target copies of the ships outside. Its fun gets people outside an no dice rolling except for damage calculations. SO, the skill is in the aiming of the player.

fullmetal2015