BobGrognard | 17 May 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
I was at Sheffield Triples today, chatting to a few traders. Apparently the second day at UK shows is a real bone of contention. The real money is taken on the Saturday, but the cost of a second day is hugely inflated by the requirement to get accommodation and all the associated costs with subsistence. In view of the fact that UK shows are not about gaming, like US Cons, should we accept the fact that UK shows should now be one day events? |
JimDuncanUK | 17 May 2015 11:39 a.m. PST |
I would have thought that a 2 day show in the UK was pretty well a non-starter for the vast majority of shows already. In fact some shows should not try to get bigger as they are already at saturation point and bigger or longer is not necessarily better. |
Volleyfire | 17 May 2015 11:43 a.m. PST |
I went on Saturday, and FWIW I thought there were far fewer punters there than usual. OK so I didn't arrive until 12.45 thanks to roadworks and my work, but I found empty spaces in the main car park quite easily, and there just didn't seem to me to be the usual crush in the halls, in fact you could move around quite freely and (elbowing rucksacks aside) see most things quite easily without having to wait and twiddle thumbs.Now either everyone had piled in for 10am start, wizzed round and gone by the time I got there, or there wasn't the footfall you would have expected. I would have thought Sunday was going to be a busier day TBH because some of us still have to work Saturdays, or the OH wants to go shoping or something which kind of rules that day out? |
IUsedToBeSomeone | 17 May 2015 11:50 a.m. PST |
Two day shows have never been worthwhile doing as a trader over a one day show. They exist because of competition games which run over the weekend. Usually you take half on a Sunday compared to a Saturday and the same as a one day show in total… Mike |
John Treadaway | 17 May 2015 12:53 p.m. PST |
What Black Hat Mike said: tournaments. John T |
foxweasel | 17 May 2015 1:11 p.m. PST |
I was there today and thought there were a lot less punters than last year, empty gaming tables as well. 6 pounds to get in and 3.50 to park, I'll bet there were a few Yorkshiremen chuntering at that. |
bc1745 | 17 May 2015 1:16 p.m. PST |
Generally as BHM says…..main trade on a Sunday is done first thing between traders and those involved in competitions…..still pay the same each day for tables as a trader…..may as well pack up after lunch…..IMO…. Bc1745 |
Redcurrant | 17 May 2015 1:36 p.m. PST |
I was there today, and there looked to be a lot fewer people, there wasn't even a crush at the bring and buy!. The 6 quid to get in surprised me, and when you add on parking and petrol costs, then I will have to give serious thought about whether to go again, especially as one of the Newark shows is usually on within 2 weeks, and is only 45 miles up the road (as opposed to about 100 to Sheffield). It might even be more viable to go down to Salute where there are far more traders, so the chances of finding what you want are better. |
dwight shrute | 17 May 2015 2:08 p.m. PST |
organisers should offer Sudays shutting down at say 2pm . Colours in Reading is the same . Sundays are often very quiet indeed . |
Mako11 | 17 May 2015 2:34 p.m. PST |
Sounds like it to me. Even here in the USA, Sunday events are usually much more sparsely attended than those on Saturdays. I suspect you'd need to sell a lot on Sunday (or any day for that matter), to make back money spent for lodging, food, table space, etc. |
freewargamesrules | 17 May 2015 2:40 p.m. PST |
I thought attendances were well down this year the worst in 25 years of attending. Lots of traders missing too which meant traders were spread out and very few participation and demo games. (On the Sunday there were 3 less Demo games as shown by empty tables). No Lance and Longbow and no Society of Ancients. Bring & Buy was the worst I had ever seen it. Loads of empty tables and no queuing booking in and no hordes around the tables! There used to be over 200 people in the competitions this year only about 30 in 2 comps! Spoke to a lot of traders who said it was dire and many thinking of dropping it next year. Apparently organisers had a quote from the Magners Centre (where they hold Comic Con) at a much lower price and offered to hold it in March too. Then went back to Sports Centre and got them to drop the price and agree to a future March move. Unless they can buck the trend they will have very few traders left in future. |
Maddaz111 | 17 May 2015 3:11 p.m. PST |
I am just a member of Sheffield wargames society, so cannot comment about plans, changes, or the fact that the future show will be in march next year… What I can say, as a trader, was that it seemed busy on Saturday morning, and felt busier on Sunday, than last year.. but it was for me not a high volume of trade. I think the majority of punters raced to their target stall, checked the bring and buy, then wandered around .. and then left.. The bring and buy, was a very lacklustre affair.. usually there are one or two bargains… not for me last or this year.. The small hall is still ignored by a number of the punters.. but what happened to announcements and signage.. The programme is now a double sided sheet of paper.. a photocopy, sadly the plan was not correct.. a number of games were moved, listed incorrectly, stands were placed semi randomly.. (mine was moved after it was set up…) For many years, Triples was better than Derby, and they bookended the northern midland show calendar. based on last years show at Derby, and this Triples I would say that the Balance has shifted. I assume the plans put into place to move it back into the historic date range before easter, and the hopefully other activities planned will enable the next show to be a return to strength.. |
Yesthatphil | 17 May 2015 4:24 p.m. PST |
No Lance and Longbow and no Society of Ancients. Not quite true … The Society had a small presence out the back on Saturday
(The Society of Ancients DBA winners at Triples) … and a limited range of membership stuff. We just don't have the resources to do the show and support the DBA event – so this has pretty much been the formula for the last few years. We'd be happy to do more I'm sure – but would need more volunteers. From what I saw I thought it was a good show and well worth the visit … I'm not fussed whether it is a 1-day or 2-day event but can't guarantee to support both days up North without more members offering to help out. Good luck to it … Phil Society of Ancients (Shows North) Ancients on the Move |
GildasFacit | 18 May 2015 3:58 a.m. PST |
We got there about 10:30 on Saturday and stayed until about 15:00. It did seem less crowded than usual but I still had to wait my turn at stands as usual so business where I was shopping seemed similar to the last few years. I don't go to shows for the games but this year's did seem rather uninspiring. Never went near the B&B as I've no interest in 28mm or GW stuff, which is all I have ever seen there before. For me the change to the old date would suit but a number of traders I spoke to seem to prefer around the current date. It does seem that Northern shows are not bringing southern sellers up North as much as they used to do. £6.00 GBP entrance was a bit of a shock too, still it isn't really that much of a hit for a damn good day out and the chance for a good chat and see people you only see a few times a year. I'd agree that Derby is getting to be quite a good show with a range of traders I like but the venue is so awful that I need to allow a couple of days for the headache to subside afterwards. |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 4:19 a.m. PST |
I live in Lincs so my nearest shows are, in order, Vapnartak, Hammerhead,Cannon, Triples, Partizan 1, then a long gap to Partizan 2 and finally Derby. I try to get to all these every year if I can. If I had to drop any and not really miss going it would be Cannon (v small and too much fantasy for me)and possibly Triples. The reason for giving Triples a miss would be it's proximity to Partizan for me, and I suspect that a lot of southerners don't venture up to it is because it is so soon after Salute? Moving it to March is going to hit Hammerhead I would think, where even though it is primarily focused on participation games the number of traders has grown significantly. Personally I'd like to see Triples move to mid/late July and fill the long gap between the two Partizans. I know some people will say "But it's Summer and school holidays", well even better then as more young gamers can attend.Not everyone chooses to go away on family holiday in July/August and, as the average age of wargamers judging from the posts and polls on here is 40 -50, then most no longer have small persons in tow anyway. Those that do however might relish a show where they can take the kids during the holidays, and not have to worry about getting them home early on a Sunday evening what with it being school the next day. If we are to attract and cater for the younger generation, the hobby's future, we need to be looking at putting on shows on days that are more convenient for young families i.e. Saturdays not Sundays and at times of the year that suit such as half term and school holidays. Personally I'd have liked to have seen more participation games at Triples this year. I don't see the point of having demo games that fall back into the old trap where nothing moves once everything has been set up, and/or most of the participants seem to wander off leaving just one guy to hold the fort and chat to punters. I'm thinking of Penarth here in particular whose game looked great, but when I walked past there was just one guy sitting there looking bored to tears, hardly a great advert for the hobby.I'd have loved a game, but it was demo only, such a shame. |
Andoreth | 18 May 2015 5:42 a.m. PST |
I like Triples being a two day show but if it must be a one day event make it a Saturday. I have given up trying to get anywhere on a Sunday by train. |
John Treadaway | 18 May 2015 5:52 a.m. PST |
£6 GBP entrance was a bit of a shock too, still it isn't really that much of a hit for a damn good day out £6.00 GBP (or £4.00 GBP, or £8.00 GBP) seems irrelevant to me. Unless one thinks that the organisers are in some way gouging the attendees, then the difference is a cup of tea in the motorway services on the way up so I really don't care: compared to the petrol for (in my case) a 400 mile round trip (maybe £70.00 GBP) – and in a world of regular gaming miniatures often costing ywo or three pounds each (and I don't just mean GW) it's just not ever an issue, IMHO. Sadly, I didn't make it to Sheffield this year through work commitments, but – of the things that might have altered that position, the entry fee was not a factor. I suspect that, for some gamers, they might feel – as I said earlier – that in some way the organisers are 'having one over' on gamers, but – again IMHO – this is never the case. No one gets rich running wargames shows… I'm more concerned with the timing and location of a show, and by its associated advertising, show guide, trader list, game quality and the need to stretch it over two days to accommodate a few tournament players. I also completely support Volley fire's comments about demo games. For me demos have to be really jaw droppingly good nowadays – and they have to be actually demonstrated by the players – to hold my attention and what they just can't be is four blokes playing a glorified club night game with no talk, no interaction, no support material etc. John T |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 6:35 a.m. PST |
Quote "For me demos have to be really jaw droppingly good nowadays – and they have to be actually demonstrated by the players – to hold my attention and what they just can't be is four blokes playing a glorified club night game with no talk, no interaction, no support material etc." John T IMO the demo game has about run it's course where it is put on by a club. I think the way we eventually see demo games going in the future is where Traders such as Warlord etc put on a game which they have financed as a showcase for their wares and any new associated rulesets such as we are seeing with Bolt Action, and those games currently put on by clubs move towards being entirely participation, possibly with punters being able to book places or slots on those games they wish to play days in advance. |
olicana | 18 May 2015 7:12 a.m. PST |
IMO the demo game has about run it's course where it is put on by a club. I think the way we eventually see demo games going in the future is where Traders such as Warlord etc put on a game which they have financed as a showcase for their wares and any new associated rulesets such as we are seeing with Bolt Action, and those games currently put on by clubs move towards being entirely participation, possibly with punters being able to book places or slots on those games they wish to play days in advance Sheffield aside, because I have a sharp axe there (I'm barred), I disagree. Some of the best games I've ever seen are 'private' affairs. Please, and I think the trade would agree, high quality demo games at shows are inspirational. Remember that some 'Traders' for rules or figures are not in your country and require the help of others , usually unpaid, to 'demonstrate' their wares. |
normsmith | 18 May 2015 8:36 a.m. PST |
Shame to hear that Triples had reduced numbers. Going to a one day show to help the Traders has to be a serious consideration. What we do with shows needs some serious considerations by punters. Use it or lose it. at the heart of the show is the commercial engine that gives it a reason to exist. We need to go and we need to spend, otherwise no show. I do not say that with any sense of arrogance, having full regard that we all have different budget considerations. I like the fact that clubs and societies put on demo games, there is generally a genuine passion surrounding the game that they are putting on and raw enthusiasm is picked up by punters. At my last show, I made some impulsive purchases as a direct result of some demo games. BUT – there needs to be an ethos that all games, whether participation or demo, exist purely to serve the public interest and they need to be 100% available to the public for questions etc, it is much better than it used to be in this regard, but there is still room for improvement. There are times when it can feel quite obvious that the chaps have just turned up for a club day out and a bit of fun with the club game – I don't think that sort of thing will have a part to play in a more 'public centric' type show that will be needed if shows are to remain as viable. I agree with JT that £6.00 GBP at the door is not unreasonable, though if I thought a club was excessively profiteering, then that would put a different slant on things. All the shows that I have gone to have been run seamlessly. The club do a fantastic behind the scenes job. The way I see it is that all these people (including traders who give up their Sunday etc and do not take much coin) turn up and do a tremendous amount of work, just so I can have sheer indulgence for 4 hours or so – thank you to all the invisible people that make that happen, I think you are sadly probably under-appreciated. |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 8:41 a.m. PST |
Sheffield aside, because I have a sharp axe there (I'm barred), I disagree. Some of the best games I've ever seen are 'private' affairs. Please, and I think the trade would agree, high quality demo games at shows are inspirational. Remember that some 'Traders' for rules or figures are not in your country and require the help of others , usually unpaid, to 'demonstrate' their wares. To a certain degree I sympathise with what you are saying, however I think such traders and their unpaid demonstrators could be accomodated under the umbrella of demo games that are supported and funded directly by large purveyors of figures and rules, it shouldn't turn into a clique where only the big fish can swim by all means.After all a firm would have gone to the effort of sponsoring someone by some means in order to get their product painted, flocked etc and on the table, I can't see unpaid minions doing a large scale project funded entirely out of their own pocket simply to promote someone else's figures or rules, because what is in it for them at the end of the day if they do? I would dare some other show to go the way of Hammerhead, and put on nothing but participation games this year and see what kind of reaction they get, after all, you never know until you try. |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 8:46 a.m. PST |
I agree with Olicana … pride of place should go to the privateers (who put on games because they are committed to the period/subject/genre, not just because they want to sell you something)… I always trust the judgement of demo teams (I do regularly talk to them about choice of game etc – why they like particular rules … but ignore trader games: they have nothing objective to contribute to my choice of next project, best rules etc. etc.) Once the club and society games have gone, I will hang up my show-going boots for good. Phil |
normsmith | 18 May 2015 8:46 a.m. PST |
Hammerhead is growing – that tells its own tale. |
olicana | 18 May 2015 8:48 a.m. PST |
What we do with shows needs some serious considerations by punters. Use it or lose it. Should there be a mega two day show, like Salute, in an accessible place like the Midlands rather than in the SE. Given the price of northern (ish) beer, even Londoners might go! I think Salute proves numbers, it's just the venue. On the whole I think, in the UK, the two day show is now past its sell by. I'm hoping though, that I can get a few more in before going state side. |
MajorB | 18 May 2015 8:49 a.m. PST |
6 pounds to get in and 3.50 to park If you think that's a lot, then don't even think about going to Salute – £15.00 GBP to get in to say nothing of parking / travel costs! |
MajorB | 18 May 2015 8:55 a.m. PST |
Should there be a mega two day show, like Salute, Salute is not a two day show … I think Salute proves numbers, it's just the venue. It's the only place big enough in the South East. You'd have to go to the NEC at Birmingham for anything comparable, and I hardly think the South London Warlords would want to run their club show 100 miles away!! |
olicana | 18 May 2015 8:56 a.m. PST |
6 pounds to get in and 3.50 to park If you think that's a lot, then don't even think about going to Salute – £15.00 GBP GBP to get in to say nothing of parking / travel costs!<q/>Agreed, although I came with family last timeA few years ago), and although I got in free (SoA and I won best painted army prize) the London weekend trip cost almost £1,000.00 GBP, and that was before buying stuff. |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 9:12 a.m. PST |
"Hammerhead is growing – that tells its own tale". Wholeheartedly agree with you on this one.It was really buzzing this year and a great atmosphere all round.Without disparaging the organisers in any way shape or form at Triples by comparison TBH it felt really flat. "I always trust the judgement of demo teams (I do regularly talk to them about choice of game etc – why they like particular rules … but ignore trader games: they have nothing objective to contribute to my choice of next project, best rules etc. etc.)"
Perhaps you do Phil, but I don't know anyone else in my circle of gaming friends who does, in fact if anything we trust the traders after all it is they who invest and keep driving the hobby forwards.I'd rather spend time on a trader's demo game run by someone who knows what they are talking about, in depth, and playing a new set of rules with some expertly painted figures to see whether I liked the whole set up and mechanics, rather than a few words with someone I probably don't recognise who will give me his own somewhat biased opinion. At least the trader won't make comparisons with other rule sets, that is to say I've never noticed that happen in the past, and you can still make up your own mind whether to purchase them or not as I haven't had anyone twist my arm up my back, yet. Like a lot of things in life wargaming has to evolve and move with the times, however slow and painful that may be, because if it stands still it will gradually fade. |
olicana | 18 May 2015 9:30 a.m. PST |
Volley fire, I'm surprised that you think that 'show' games are funded. Some are, to a degree, I know. Some games are done as advertisement, and paid. But these are usually few in number. Some clubs get a hefty discount from manufactures for their figures for demo games and demo'ers don't pay to get in. Some clubs will fund hotel and breakfast. Sometimes demo'ers get their parking paid or subsidised. The Ilkley Lads don't fall into any of those categories. The Ilkley Lads are self funding. We get in free and sometimes get free parking (BTW, not in Leeds because we are not traders and not paying for table space – they treat us as willing to be fleeced volunteers). So don't be confused as to why people put on their games. Most do it, at their own expense, to promote the hobby and for a 'day out'. Some might gain Kudos for doing it well. NO ONE I KNOW DOES IT FOR PECUNIARY GAIN!!! |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 9:56 a.m. PST |
So don't be confused as to why people put on their games. Most do it, at their own expense, to promote the hobby and for a 'day out'. Some might gain Kudos for doing it well. NO ONE I KNOW DOES IT FOR PECUNIARY GAIN!!! Olicana I think you missed my point there, or I didn't make myself very clear. I'm not suggesting that people are doing it for pecuniary gain. Whilst the first three paragraphs of your post do allude towards some sort of financial help, or aid in the way of free figures etc for instance, I'm not suggesting that these people running the games are, unless directly employed by the manufacturer or distributor, making any pecuniary gain. I'm all in favour of club games at shows, but, club games that are participation rather than merely demonstrations. Whilst some demo games are all lovely and have a certain wow factor to them, I don't think they are drawing people into the hobby just by sitting there saying "Look at me, aren't I great?" Engaging people is how you draw them in, and participation is the best way of doing that, and if it has to be with a game that has been sponsored by a certain manufacturer or trader then in my opinion so be it. |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 10:02 a.m. PST |
Sorry Volleyfire, I just think you are wrong … Wrong about the volunteers, wrong about knowledge or lack of it and wrong about the future .. Like a lot of things in life wargaming has to evolve and move with the times, however slow and painful that may be, because if it stands still it will gradually fade. Its heart might stop if you get your way (indeed the pulse is fading already which is what this thread is partly about) – but I guess you like the glossy adverts so as long as you and your mates are happy that's what counts. Phil |
jameshammyhamilton | 18 May 2015 11:20 a.m. PST |
I am really not sure why the Triples is a two day show. FOr me it was nice to be able to pop over on Sunday and get a nice relaxed chance to look at the traders and have a chat with people. The idea that the Triples has to be a two day show because of the tournaments it ludicrous. There are hardly any tournament players at the Triples and all the tournaments are one day ones anyway. The days of the Triples competition which was unique and interesting are long gone. I am not sure when it was last run but it was a while ago. There is a possibility of a large gaming event in the midlands if someone finds a way to add Wargaming back to the UK Games Expo which for 2016 is actually going to be using the NEC and this year is likely to attract roughly 15,000 people. I think the fundamental question is what are shows for? There are only a small number of shows that combine with tournaments now Britcon, Warfare and Derby are about it. Is there a need for 2 day trade shows? I am not sure, a two day trade show needs to have something else to make people want to be there both days so the US style event might work but it would take a lot of effort to make it happen. |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 11:20 a.m. PST |
Well it'll be interesting to see which of us is right in the long term Phil, only I won't sound quite so bitter about it if I'm wrong, there is after all much more to life. |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 11:58 a.m. PST |
Apologies, Volleyfire – I thought your sneering at volunteer demo game teams was mean and inaccurate. I try to document the shows I attend and have found the people who man some of the trader pitch games to be so ill-informed that they do not even know which campaign the game is set in (e.g. I asked is it Normandy? answer No idea, mate – I'm just here to run the game … it's FJ vs Americans … in fact it was Normandy and the Americans were British Paras: even I could see that – the game was that very popular 28mm WWII skirmish game so you know who the trader was … and that was at least the third time I had had that sort of response, not all WWII). I have never encountered that lack of basic knowledge from a Society or Club game. Traders are only there for the money. A trader demo is only there to sell itself. Phil |
GildasFacit | 18 May 2015 12:21 p.m. PST |
Sorry Phil but that isn't as accurate as you think. You make the mistake of assuming that all those games that are sponsored by or even set up by traders are only those that splash their name and wares all over them. Remember that the vast majority of traders are (or were) enthusiastic wargamers who made a business of it and many are still as enthusiastic. One way they can use that enthusiasm is to sponsor games even when they can't play themselves at a show. While my experience is that the majority of club or group games are well done that doesn't include them all by any means. Both demo and participation games I have seen were staffed by arrogant and ill informed people – very similar to those you describe – but with the addition of believing they were right !!! Accepting the fact that not everyone can present a game well or interact effectively with the public it is a joy to see those clubs/groups that do try their best BUT weeding out the few that can't or won't isn't a bad idea. |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 12:40 p.m. PST |
Sorry Phil but that isn't as accurate as you think. You make the mistake of assuming that all those games that are sponsored by or even set up by traders are only those that splash their name and wares all over them.Remember that the vast majority of traders are (or were) enthusiastic wargamers who made a business of it and many are still as enthusiastic. One way they can use that enthusiasm is to sponsor games even when they can't play themselves at a show. Well, I bow to your superior knowledge (and your insight into what I think is or is not 'trader sponsored') … I think a thread like this demonstrates the way wargamers get the outcomes they deserve (and why it is harder and harder to find volunteers to do these shows) … Phil |
PiersBrand | 18 May 2015 12:56 p.m. PST |
We would have loved to have had the chance to play our demo game at Salute this year… but never got the chance! Too many people to talk too! Which was great though! I think both participation and demo games have a place, the key is that those involved use it to showcase their enthusiasm and passion for the hobby. Ours may well be termed a 'traders' game, as it was to promote our books…but we still bought, begged, borrowed and painted everything on the table. Its a sizeable investment financially to do a demo, and thats before costs to travel. The demo we are doing at Bovington in july will be costing us £500.00 GBP just to get there… That doesnt come from any well off benefactor sadly! Those who do demos and participation games do it for the love of the hobby and, I suspect, the chance to show off their toy soldiers! |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 1:18 p.m. PST |
I thought it was a splendid game, PiersBrand, and put a put a picture on my blog. I think it is pretty obvious who my comments were aimed at (and I have nothing but admiration for the fellow enthusiasts who have always been the driving force in wargaming) .. I was trying to address the OP proposition that UK shows are not about gaming, like US Cons, so should we accept the fact that UK shows should now be one day events? … by standing up for the independent demo teams (who I still believe are the beating heart of the wargames show), supporting the Sheffield Club for what they've achieved over the years – and wishing them every success. I acknowledge that I didn't go back on Sunday, but only because Sheffield is a long journey, I had spent both weekend days at Campaign the week before and had an important meeting for the Naseby Battlefield Project (more volunteering ) this morning (so had some prep to do). Otherwise I'd have been back and doubtless would have had a full day enjoying the games and chatting to enthusiasts. Phil |
Yesthatphil | 18 May 2015 1:35 p.m. PST |
I should perhaps add that I may have misunderstood the point that Volleyfire was making here … about demo games and participation games. If so, we are not so far apart. By 'demo game' at a show I understand a game that is played through by a team which explains the battle and rules to the public as they go i.e. they demonstrate the wargame. That is different IMO to a display game which does nothing other than show off toys and terrain. My preference, of course, is for participation games … like demo games but you get to play, yourself. My gripe is that participation games and genuine demonstrations have been pushed out by static displays and corporate sales pitch games. I, too, like the Hammerhead model (though I think it seems less Hammerhead-y in the bigger venue and with more trade).. Apologies to Volleyfire if some of the argument was based on a misunderstanding. Phil |
Volleyfire | 18 May 2015 2:13 p.m. PST |
I should perhaps add that I may have misunderstood the point that Volleyfire was making here … about demo games and participation games. If so, we are not so far apart. By 'demo game' at a show I understand a game that is played through by a team which explains the battle and rules to the public as they go i.e. they demonstrate the wargame. That is different IMO to a display game which does nothing other than show off toys and terrain. My preference, of course, is for participation games … like demo games but you get to play, yourself. Yes Phil, in my own poor way that was mostly what I was getting at, or rather trying to. I still think that corporate sales pitch games in the guise of participation games will feature more strongly though as time goes by, and the purely display game will become consigned to history. Apologies gladly accepted btw. |
freewargamesrules | 18 May 2015 2:20 p.m. PST |
There are hardly any tournament players at the Triples and all the tournaments are one day ones anyway. Incorrect WRG 6th was a 2 day competition. With regards to demo/participation games I'm surprised that people do it at their own expense. I exhibit with my Railway Club our layout at shows all over the UK and we always get our petrol money and a free meal for all involved and copious amounts of tea and coffee. In my view that's the minimum any show organiser should pay for particiption / demo games. |
PiersBrand | 18 May 2015 3:03 p.m. PST |
I think you are right Phil. We spend most of out day explaining the rules and mechanics to those looking at our games, along with answering queries as to who made what and how to do things. Plus general chit chat with many people who we have only met online before. The shows when we get to play are a bonus, and last year we pressganged some show visitors into playing with us! One bonus of a quiet second day at two day shows is we actually get to play a game sometimes and with luck rope in a few passersby to roll some dice. I have nothing but admiration for those who run participation games, its truly hard work, but when done well can ignite enthusiasm for the hobby. I still remember the only participation game i have ever played, based on Louis Napoleons unfortunate demise in Africa, and it was utterly excellent. I think more participation games can only be better, coupled with demo games that offer both spectacle and enthusiastic presenters. That to me is all it needs for a hobby to thrive. I may go to shows to shop, but I also go to be inspired and to recharge my enthusiasm levels when they have been sapped. I attend few shows, as travel requires air fares, but those i do make like Crisis and Bovington, always leave me tired but full of ideas. They are also increasingly a place to meet up with old chums and at Salute this year I got to meet our playtesters and demo teams from Belgium and Portugal who all attended. Its an increasingly growing hobby within a shrinking world and im desperate to visit a US show to see how they do it. Anyone wanna chip in for the air fare? ;) |
Baccus 6mm | 18 May 2015 3:31 p.m. PST |
'Personally I'd like to see Triples move to mid/late July and fill the long gap between the two Partizans.' Mmmm…a show in Sheffield, perhaps at a first class and accessible location with plenty of nearby parking. Let's say for 19th July…We could make the games concentrate on participation rather than just show, but make the ones that are there to impress, REALLY impress, perhaps run hands-on painting clinics for new and old hands and even a rolling programme of seminars. Now why, Oh why has no-one ever thought of that before? thejoyof6.co.uk To my knowledge no-one is banned and it is not a closed shop. If you don't like the traditional format for shows why not support one that is trying something new? |
Volleyfire | 19 May 2015 3:11 a.m. PST |
If there was a big thumbs up symbol I could find on here I'd award it to Baccus 6mm!! Fantastic idea!! Also quite humbled that a. people do actually bother to take the time to read my ramblings, and b. that they find some of them actually useful !! Thank you. |
olicana | 19 May 2015 3:14 a.m. PST |
To my knowledge no-one is banned and it is not a closed shop. Baccus, see PM. |
scrivs | 19 May 2015 3:45 a.m. PST |
As a regular 'Independent Demonstration Gamer' I'll chuck in my 'two-penneth'. I'll disagree strongly with 'Volleyfire' As a non-organised (ok, maybe disorganised) loose group of friends we regularly do demonstration games at plenty of shows; both Partizans, Salute, Crisis and Cannon to name a few. As a group we try to put on a bit of a spectacle and make a point of talking to anybody who is interested in what we are doing. We also always ensure that action is ongoing during the game so nothing remains static. Anybody who stops by during the day will see the scenario develop, if there are enough of us on the day we'll not even stop the action for a lunch break. Two day shows are frankly a pain in the arse to put a demonstration game on. It's difficult to get commitment from enough of the group to commit over both days and it often involves the expense of additional meals, another overnight stay or additional travelling time. As for participation game, count me out. It's bad enough that some people think it's ok to pick up and paw your figures on a demonstration game, I'm not giving free licence to anybody to get their mitts on my hard work. |
olicana | 19 May 2015 4:04 a.m. PST |
Two day shows are frankly a pain in the arse to put a demonstration game on. It's difficult to get commitment from enough of the group to commit over both days and it often involves the expense of additional meals, another overnight stay or additional travelling time. I agree with this and disagree with this. Firstly, two day shows are OK as a reason for a weekend away. Not a bad thing for guys of a certain age. But, secondly, I agree that a two day show is expensive for those doing demo games. When the organisers of a show tell you that you should be grateful for them laying on half a dozen trestle tables for you to play on – because you don't have this at home (actually I do, but that's beside the point) – and that that is the REWARD for your efforts getting a game together, getting up early on the first day, packing up the car, travel, petrol, hotel, meals, I've got to say "ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING!" Some show organisers are very grateful for the effort given by contributors. This means a lot to those who give time and money to supporting the hobby in a way they can. Others, sadly, think they are the one's doing the favour. I wonder, if they were given the 'demo game tab' to pay, they would feel quite so self righteous. |
Martin Rapier | 19 May 2015 5:16 a.m. PST |
"With regards to demo/participation games I'm surprised that people do it at their own expense." We do it because we enjoy it, it is part of the hobby. Having said that, I also find two day shows a complete PITA as it knocks out the entire weekend, so it had better be something pretty special to use up all that precious free time. Anyway, the plan is for Triples to go back to earlier in the year, a better slot for it imho as it won't be so close to Salute. |
Volleyfire | 19 May 2015 6:22 a.m. PST |
"As for participation game, count me out. It's bad enough that some people think it's ok to pick up and paw your figures on a demonstration game, I'm not giving free licence to anybody to get their mitts on my hard work." Could I just ask you politely scrivs, do you let your mates use your figures? If you do, how long was it between them being allowed to look but not touch, and actually use the figures? That is to say perhaps, how long from them being regarded as strangers to being considered friends to game with, assuming that you met them through wargaming in the first place? If they already had figures themselves and gamed did that make you more likely to trust them with handling your figures, in which case what is the difference between them doing that and a complete stranger who also happens to game and who also has some very nicely painted figs at home which he takes pride in? Would it make any difference if the person who walked up and wanted to participate was say Alan Perry perhaps, as opposed to Joe Bloggs? |
scrivs | 19 May 2015 7:09 a.m. PST |
I'm happy to put on games for club mates and friends using my figures. Introductory games for newcomers to the club also, I'll set out a few ground rules, like no clumping, no eating and picking up the figures etc. while we are discussing the scenario. However, from experience, at shows a lot of people seem to think they have carte blanche to pick figures up off the table and start pawing them without so much as a request. I don't want that sort in my games. I also don't want 'figure clumpers' and 'pizza eater/figure picker-uppers'. My figures, I can choose what I do with them. My thoughts on this are documented on the blog link I'm happy to arrange games with 'friends of friends' (that includes Alan Perry) and 'internet friends' indeed that is what we did at Crisis last year when we pre-arranged players to come and play our Keren game with us link I'm not that precious you know, on at least three instances I have had friends drop boxes of figures on the floor – in one instance down the stairs too. |