Alan M | 12 May 2015 10:41 p.m. PST |
What headgear would Grenadiers have worn with cut down uniforms or with roundabouts? What would have distinguished them as Grenadiers? |
Supercilius Maximus | 12 May 2015 11:29 p.m. PST |
The cut-down coats merely had the tails/turnbacks trimmed so that the men would still have had: the bearskin cap; the match case on the belt that supported the cartridge box; the short sword, or hangar; and the distinctive shoulder wings. Except for the wings, each of these items was probably put into storage at some point in the war and no longer worn in the field. This is borne out by the fact that, immediately after the war, the match case and sword were officially done away with and the cap was retained for parades only. Bearskin caps were worn for at least the first half of the war. Lt Hale of the 45th mentions the men putting on their caps and attacking to the "Grenadiers' March" at Brandywine. However, Peebles records the 42nd putting their caps into storage in 1779 and wearing the same bonnets as the rest of the battalion. A Royal Artillery officer assigned to the Grenadier Battalion on Long Island in 1780/81 mentions obtaining a white feather for his hat, to match that of the unit his guns were supporting (the Light Battalion wore green). As far as we know for sure, only the Light Battalions wore roundabouts throughout the unit (although there is a watercolour by a Lights officer showing a Grenadier colleague in a roundabout at Germantown), so the last part of the question may be moot. That said, there is evidence that some Lights wore facing-coloured wings on their coats; this may have been a means of distinguishing companies within each Light Battalion at a distance as there were no cuffs and lapels. |
historygamer | 13 May 2015 7:17 a.m. PST |
No flags either, though some hat battalions made not have carried them either – but at least they had them. :-) |
Alan M | 13 May 2015 9:10 a.m. PST |
Thanks that's all very helpful. |
42flanker | 13 May 2015 11:59 p.m. PST |
A small detail but in his paintings of the attack at Paoli Tavern and the battle of Germantown, Xavier della Gatta shows facing colours on the cuffs of some of the 2nd Light Infantry jackets. A lone 2nd LI figure in the foreground of 'Germantown' clearly has yellow cuffs on his jacket. St George in his cartoons of the Philadelphis campaign shows distiguishing items on the British uniforms. In 'My Triumphant Entry Into Philadelphia' a 2nd LI man in the foreground is shown with what look like buff cuffs (probably a man of St George's own regiment, the 52nd) while Captain West of the 4th King's Own grenadier coy (1st Grenadier Battalion) wears a jacket with blue facings on cuffs and on what appears to be a turned-back lapel- which would seem to indicate a cut-down coat. West wears a black hat with the right side turned up and secured with a cockade and black feather. The 2nd LI Man referred to above has full 'wings'on his shoulders (plain red with white detail) while Captain Weir and others in the picture simply have some kind of light-coloured insert in the shoulder seam. This feature can be detected in della Gatta's Germantown picture as well. |
Supercilius Maximus | 14 May 2015 3:35 a.m. PST |
Yes, the cuffs, dammit! They used the sleeves off the regimental coat. |
historygamer | 14 May 2015 8:36 a.m. PST |
SM: Do have something from a primary source that refers to the sleeves being sewn onto the waistcoat? I remain very skeptical of that notion, so just wondering your source. My reasons for skepticism: 1. the cut of the waistcoast (lower opening and shape) 2. I suspect the backs of the red waistcoats were cheap linen, not wool – fashion and saves money Just curious what you have on this. |
Old Contemptibles | 14 May 2015 9:31 a.m. PST |
I'm a heretic. My center battalion guards carry their flags. |
janner | 14 May 2015 11:09 p.m. PST |
Colours, my dear chap. British Infantry regiments carry colours |
Supercilius Maximus | 15 May 2015 2:29 a.m. PST |
Historygamer – I must confess that I've just "gone with the flow" on that one as regards primary sources. FWIW, Franklin shows waistcoats for both 1751 and 1768 uniforms having both front and back in the same colour/material [p.126]. He also mentions that waistcoats were often made from old coats (I assume he's talking 1751 and post-1768 light company items). I have to say I've never come across any evidence of soldiers being issued the style of waistcoat you mention, which I've always thought of as a 19th Century fashion). I would also imagine it would be cheaper to make a garment entirely from one material, rather than having to source a second material and transport it to the workers makng up the garments (isn't it also more difficult to sew two different materials together?). |
42flanker | 15 May 2015 3:17 a.m. PST |
FWIW, I don't think Franklin should be relied on much. The facing/ lace schemas may be useful but, certainly with regard to the AWI period, both in terms of research and editing, some of what is written in his book is seriously adrift. Apart from the visual references from the Philadelphia campaign that we have touched on, (i.e della Gatta, St George) what evidence _do_ we have for the short jackets, be they cut-down coats, adapted waistcoats or newly made garments? It is a subject that till now I have let sweep over me rather as the intricacies of discussion have tended to lose me. I find it interesting, nonetheless. Incidentally, I am sure I read that 'roundabout' as an AWI term of reference is meant to be something of an anachronism from the Federalist/1812 period? |
Supercilius Maximus | 15 May 2015 4:55 a.m. PST |
There appear to have been two distinct styles from the della Gatta paintings – the short jackets worn by the Lights (the "roundabout") and the converted regimental coat of the 40th Foot, which is also single-breasted, but has turnbacks and shortened tails. When you look closely, these two items are quite distinct. I'm aware Franklin is not perfect – and even more so in the AWI section – but for basic uniform cut and style, I have not found anything major that stands out as fundamentally wrong. You are correct that "roundabout" is anachronistic; the contemporary terms were, I believe, "postillion jacket" and "Newmarket jacket" in that they resembled the working clothing of carriage drivers and jockeys. |
Virginia Tory | 15 May 2015 7:45 a.m. PST |
Is it possible that "sleeved waistcoat" is referring to a style and not a literal description? That is, you cut down the coat to the point where it's short and has no collar/lapels so it "looks like" a waistcoat. Then you put the sleeves back on. Otherwise, I think HG has a point--literally putting regimental sleeves on a waistcoat would look a bit odd. |
historygamer | 15 May 2015 7:53 a.m. PST |
I'll see if I can come up with more, but yes, waistcoats with the front panels in one type of cloth and the back in cheaper linen were used during this period. I have always assumed that to save a buck the red waistcoats of the Lights were backed in cheaper linen, which was somewhat common during this period, even in more expensive clothing. My skepticism of the converted waistcoat idea also is based on the most common patterns of waistcoat during the time period – that the front two panels end in an inverted V shape – which is not present in any of the period art of lights in roundabout jackets. Here are some quick links: link link |
historygamer | 15 May 2015 8:02 a.m. PST |
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42flanker | 15 May 2015 9:59 a.m. PST |
When reading discussions regarding the cut-down jacket, I always assumed- dangerous word- that the V-shaped opening below the lowest button of the waistcoat would disappear when cut to waist length. Presumably- not so dangerous- a linen-backed waistcoat would be more comfortable for a soldier who was jogging about the place than would two layers of broadcloth on his back. |
42flanker | 17 May 2015 10:59 a.m. PST |
I was wracking my brains as to where I had read a study of the red waistcoat question. Here is the opinion of a living history/re-enactment group Captain Fraser's Company of British Rangers, commonly known as the "Company of Select Marksmen, whose members have looked into the matter. link And some ofthe Loutherbourg sketches fron 1778, which are mentioned, can be viewed here. link The views of the waistcoat lower edges are, as the article states obscured somewhat by cartridge pouches worn on the waistbelt. However, I believe this sketch from the set is fairly persuasive regarding the length of the waistcoat worn by _some_ Light Infantry companies in the 1770s- albeit back in Britain. link |