"Soviet Tank Regiment question" Topic

As I continue to look through unit organizations I end up seeing a lot of conflict in the organization of the Tank regiment in the MRD. Sometimes I see the regiment listed with a Motorized infantry battalion to go along with the three tank battalions and other times I do not see it listed at all.
I am curious how others handle this in their collection of figures… if you go up to that level of organization. Do I keep that mech battalion in my regiment or not? And does the same hold true for the tank division?

There was some variation between divisions over time and due to equipment availability. Officially, since the mid 70s, there would be a full tracked MR battalion. In reality, some divisions only had a company or no infantry. All the GSFG divisions would have had a full battalion.

Many armored regiments had to make do with a motor rifle company instead of a full battalion. Officially, an armored regiment was 3 armored battalions and a tracked motor rifle battalion. A motor rifle regiment was 3 motor rifle battalions (all of which could be either wheeled or tracked, but not a mix of battalion types) and an armored battalion, which also was often only a company. As Cold Steel said, only in the GSFG was there a generally successful attempt to keep units at official TO&E levels.

Okay, so I have been building my Soviet forces to be the GSFG and have been giving the tank regiments their motor rifle support.

For GSFG, you're doing it the right way. Include all the various support units and artillery, and you have a regiment

I think he is asking a more nuanced question than just the organization of a generic tank regiment in the GSFG. I think you are specifically asking about a tank regiment in an MRD in the GSFG.

According to this CIA report, link and FM 100-2-3, link a tank regiment in an MRD has NO organic motor rifle support. I would assume this is due to the nine battalions present in the division's MRRs, and they figured that was enough.

Interestingly, the reverse does not seem to hold true in tank divisions. Their MRR seems to have a tank battalion, giving the division 10 tank battalions. Why this is the case is anybody's guess, but probably something along the lines of more tanks = more gooder.

To me, if the CIA of the 1980s and the US Army of the early 1990s believed there to be no motor rifle battalion in an MRD's tank regiment, I'm inclined to believe them. This was their bread and butter back then, I doubt they would have missed an entire subunit in a division.

Yes Mad is correct,

Annex F to Army code 70735 – The Tk regt of a MRR had no organic inf but a MRR Regt of a Tk Div had a Tk Bn,

Tally Ho!

Correct on the last two. A typical TD would have 3 regiments of tanks (93-95 tanks each) and one regiment of mechanized (93-95 BMP/BRDM) with a battalion of tanks (40). My TD will finish out as:

Regiment 1 – 95 T-80's, 31 BMP-3, 6 152mm SP, 4 ZSU-34
Regiment 2 – 95 T-80's, 31 BMP-3, 6 152mm SP, 4 ZSU-34
Regiment 3 – 95 T-80's, 31 BMP-3, 6 152mm SP, 4 ZSU-34
Regiment 4 – 95 BMP-3's, 40 T-80, 18 122mm SP, 4 ZSU-34
Artillery Reg – 18 152mm SP, 54 122mm SP, 18 BM-21
AA Regiment – 20 SA-6, 20 SA-15
Recon – 6 T-80's, 12 BMP-2
Helicopter – 6 Hind, 6 HIP

Not worrying about the other support elements at this point.

So yes Mad, that was more what I meant…sorry if I was unclear. One of my projects is 1 stand=1 battalion so the question would indeed be that:

Motor Rifle Division
MRR 1-3: mech battalion, mech battalion, mech battalion, tank battalion
Tank regiment: tank battalion, tank battalion, tank battalion…. mech battalion (or not to mech battalion)

Yes, Tk Regt – Tk Bn, Tk Bn, Tk Bn.

Tally Ho!

Perhaps I, and/or the info I have read is mistaken, or people were doing mixed MR units due to real vs. wargaming scale units on the tabletop, however, I seem to recall some mix of tracked and wheeled vehicles in the MRRs.

Usually, IIRC, one battalion of tracked IFVs in the unit, and two battalions of wheeled IFVs/APCs in the regiment.

So, perhaps as HistoryPhD points out, it really should be one regiment of tracked vehicles, and two of the wheeled ones in a MRD?

Wouldn't surprise me to see that we are doing it wrong, for convenience, and the number of minis to real vehicles ratios on the tabletop.

Then again, since cross-attaching isn't unheard of in NATO units, perhaps the Soviets practiced the same, or planned to (probably a bit less likely, but not impossible, I imagine)?

1 BMP, 2 BTR Regiemnts to the Division

(I've built one of each for Commanad Decision)

My MRDs are two BTR and 1 BMP regiment… sorry, I was lazy and just said mech for all in my scenario. Just no wheels or tracks in the tank regiment now!

No always the same vehicle type in a Regiment, i.e. BTR or BMP. A Regiment could have 2 Bns of BMP-1 and one of BMP-2,

Tally Ho!

Thanks for the clarifications.

As expected, the TO&Es were modified a bit, to get the mix of forces on the tabletop.

This is exactly why I dislike 1 miniature = X unit orgs, but when representing really large scale units like regiments, and divisions, I can see why you need to do that.

Yeah generally two BTR regiments and one BMP regiment in a typical MRD. A couple of MRDs in the GSFG converted a BTR regiment to BMP in the 80s, and some even converted their TR into another MRR near the end of the 80s, but these aren't the norm.

I always build the regiments to the largest possible size and include all the options (like towed 122 batteries instead of SP), then leave out the bits I don't need. So my TRs all have an optional MR bn.

In the 80s a BTR Regt would have towed D-30 and a BMP/Tk Regt 2S1,

Tally Ho!

However, self-propelled artillery was always in short supply, especially in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, so it wasn't uncommon to see a BMP/Tank regiment with part of its artillery allotment as towed guns.

Yeah, that CIA paper was published in 1983, they list most divisions having 2S1s with the BMP MRR and TR, and D30s in the BTR MRRs, with 2 battalions of D30 and one battalion of 2S3 in the Artillery Regt.

In a TD, they have one TR and the BMP MRR with 2S1, the other two TRs with D30, and only two 2S3 battalions in the artillery regiment (no third battalion).