"Modern Submarine Rules for Miniatures?" Topic

I've been kinda bitten by modern submarines lately and have yet to find any rules for 1-1 stalking or small breakout type
scenarios. Any insight?

I've been working on and off on a set for about 20 years now. Alas showing no signs of getting them sorted out though

Can't be done, cool mounting system though.
The only approach I can think of would be a Battleship style game where you guess at areas to search and depending on the effectiveness of you ASW suite you get better reports of what you search.
Doesn't point to anything very entertaining IMO.

It is a shame to let those good looking submarines lay idle.

Those look really great!

I'd love some rules as well, for this type of gaming.

ProbSub appeared promising, but alas is missing a lot, e.g. diesel-electrics and the ultra-modern AIP subs, surface vessels, sub-hunting aircraft and helos, etc.

Really, Harpoon is about the only viable choice I can think of, currently.

I think Dave Shoe was working on a set to go with Mr. Manley's Bulldogs Away, but it's pretty rough right now.

I'd be happy to try to help, if anyone is interested in working on their own, and/or upgrading some other simple rules.

Would love to try to do a bit of sub vs. sub games in the Baltics, during the Cold War, or Cold War II. Would also be interested in some surface ships and helos doing a bit of sub hunting in the Baltics too, for the same periods.

Of course, other theaters would be fun as well, but given the tight nature of the Baltics, so many subs there, the complex bottom geography, current, and varying salinities, it would be a very challenging arena to game in, and/or do justice to.

Any thoughts on making the above possible are appreciated.

Thanks for the comments on the subs. Harpoon is pretty complex and needs an ump, so I'd most likely not go there.

Those are all 1/700 BTW.

I played in a Harpoon sub-sub game and I agree it needs an umpire. But it's also the only set of rules I can think of. Nice models btw.

Somewhere, I've got a lot of notes for various, small, DE subs, and wanted to stat those up, e.g. in terms of sonar signature size and quietness.

Even did a little background trying to find info on the various Kilo models, and how they compare to SSNs and others.

Not sure where I put all that now, but it's around here, somewhere.

Yea, without an umpire, you need to go with some dummies on the table, for both sides. Perhaps a difficult die roll to acquire them, and then another difficult, or harder one to ensure they are really a target, and not various other things, like whales, school of fish, etc., etc.

It can be done.

Played a Falklands game, years ago with my son, and used a mix of Shipwreck, Harpoon (for a lot of the stats not included, like sonar buoys and helo dipped sonar), and home brew rules.

It worked out pretty well, though he never did identify my sub for sure, despite numerous attempts.

He had two RN escorts, and I had one real sub, but four other dummies, all on the tabletop, to really give him a sense of fear, like any good ship captain should have in sub-infested waters. I also used a house-rule where the subs could be in the spot shown, or anywhere within a few inch radius, using clock positions and distances in reference to the models on the table.

That provided for a lot of choices for him to have to search for, and even if he searched for all of them, he still might not find a sub.

Running both sides with hidden movement/positions like that could be challenging, but isn't impossible, if the person you are playing against is honest.

I made notes in writing of the real sub's identity, and position relative to its sub marker, prior to play, just to be able to belay any doubts about trust, afterwards.

You might be able to do that with a couple of subs, and perhaps some neutrals, or undersea fauna to confuse things a bit.

Avalon Hill Attack Sub?

link

Mal Wright's, Convoy game does a good job of portraying sub warfare.

While Attack Sub is a great game, I'm not sure how it can translate to a miniatures format.

I'd love to see a set of rules – I too have 1/700 scale subs that we use with Modern Naval Battles – but for a less abstract game I'm not sure what is on the market. However using lots of dummy submarines per real one could be an excuse to have many subs of different types on the table

Yep, looks great, and gives your opponents pause.

Much more satisfying and frightening than those ugly little cardboard chits.

Of course, a whale, or fish school could turn out to be an enemy sub after all, occasionally, too.

Just attach a little slip of paper, or other item to the base, or underside of a waterlined sub, on the real ones, and write down which are real, or make mental notes of that, as your age and memory permits.

I like the general zone of position rule too, since even if your opponent guesses the right sub, he still may not detect it, unless he chooses to search the correct quadrant for its true location (using the variable true sub location to miniature on the tabletop rule – I used distance in inches and clock positions to keep track of that).

Check out a free set of rules called Snap Shot. I think they fit the bill pretty well.

Where are these rules located?

Do they include rules and stats for DE and AIP subs?

snapshotmodernsub.webs.com/rules

To quote the author: "Theses rules have been devised and written as a response to frustration with having 1/700 plastic kits of various subs and surface ships – and no rules to use."

There is only 1 diesel sub data card – for the Kilo. It would not be difficult to make your own data card for any other sub or surface ship.

I played around with some modifications to Full Thrust, still haven't sorted out the sensor problem.

The challenge is to make the detection and stalk to firing position the interesting part of the game, and I haven't done that to my satisfaction.

I have the ship designs down to a reasonably solid foundation, as well as combat.

And for those that don't remember, I served on SSBNs, so I do know the game firsthand. We didn't get anywhere near as much practice against other subs as a fast-attack, but you cannot beat an Ohio-class for being a noiseless ghost in the water.

Of course, having done this for real, I can't tell y'all what the real detection ranges are, which makes writing a game about it rather challenging! On the other hand, I can simply make up numbers to make for a decent game and state that, too.

Thanks for the link to Snapshot.

Perhaps, if you just gave us ranges in inches, or cms, Lion.

Or non linear range bands with no easy to determine scale and a few bits of misleading data point

Well, my current incarnation of the rules has a specific groundscale already. 1 MU = 500 yards, and game turns are 3 real-world minutes long. So moving 1 MU/turn is a speed of about 5 knots.

Precise vessel speeds get interesting, but I can cite Wiki and/or Janes for those, plus the exact speed floats a bit.

Depth bands are rather generic, but I just cannot figure out how to get the "outrun the torpedo" reality to work with non-linear, non-specific range bands.

I'd prefer a linear game scale, myself, though I know some people prefer the condensed ones, for small tables.

Perhaps just a saving die roll for outrunning the torpedo, at various speeds, ranges, and angles of attack.

In modern sub vs sub combat the two sides never see each other, just blips on sonar. Traditional miniatures gaming is pretty much irrelevant.

Blip counters on the tabletop are a bit boring.

MakoII's suggestion is sound
Have the evading submarine "perform an evade move" which would include a turn away and the depth changes and last minute turns etc
Noise makers, sea condition, termocline, terrain, nixies and knuckles all are modifiers to break the sonar lock or the torpedo at the last.
Steel from your favourite air wars rules

I'm happy with non linear tables
How else to model convergence zones?

In modern sub vs sub combat the two sides never see each other, just blips on sonar.

Not even that, as sonar doesn't do "blip" displays like radars do. As Mako says, plain counters isn't as pretty to look at.

How else to model convergence zones?

As a target too far away to engage in this battle. A single CZ is ~30 miles away, which is a good 2 hours at a speed where your sonar is heavily degraded (but not totally useless), and a good 3 hours away if you want to keep your sonar at best effectiveness.

Perhaps just a saving die roll for outrunning the torpedo, at various speeds, ranges, and angles of attack.

I used a combination of rolling dice for warhead strength and PDS interception of the "missiles" to reduce the number of warhead dice rolled to handle decoys and how close the explosion was.

The problem is that a normal torpedo engagement can be so close that the target cannot outrun the incoming torp. This is why the Soviets developed the VK111 Shkval supercavitating torpedo, to give their subs a counter-fire weapon.

Emergency blow and hope the bubbles do the trick. And you don't get stuck on the surface.

Lion – keep us posted of your game development! I'd love a game where my 1/700 scale models can be on table – hunting…Thanks!

I'd only use convergence zone detections with map movement, on a chart, or hexmat.

Lion, no one said the die roll for evasion had to be easy, or even possible, at some distances/depths/speeds.

;-)

@Mako: true enough, but I try to limit dice rolls that would need a lot of rules-references.

Also, we tried and trained really hard to only make engagements from a place where evasion in the form of outrunning or out-maneuvering the torpedo was impossible.

I would also recommend snapshot. It's a good set of quick play rules that give the impression of under water warfare.