"Bring Historicon Back to the North East!!!!!!!!!!!! " Topic

This con has to return to the North East!

Oh sweet mother of God! Not again!

I agree with the sentiments but give it up mate, never gonna happen. Especially if the Referenda passes. It then becomes a wholly owned product of the BOD.

Enjoy your Cold Wars and Fall In and leave H'con south of the Dixie! :)

SFC Retired

Prince Edward Island or bust!

Perhaps that's a bit too far North East.

Be careful what you wish for, ViscountEric.

If you persist with that "bad" attitude of yours, someone may nominate you to run for the Board in the next election.

We'll see.

If the trend of attendance continues to decline at the FCC (three out of four years, including this last year), it is a given Hcon will have to move. The question is, where?

Little Wars

…..groan…..

Move it to Baltimore!!

Did you say, "Historicon"?

Sloooowly I turned…

… and all I saw was a 25mm miniature… with a HOOK!

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a southern con during the fall or winter months when weather and vacation traffic weren't such a factor?

Wouldn't that be even more of a draw to go?

We already have plenty of local conventions in the South during the Fall and Winter months, so you can keep your cons in PA!!

"Your cons"? That comment and SFC Retired's comment seem to capture the regionalism that exists in the span of HMGS-E. Any venue move discussion fractures along these lines. Maybe it's time to evolve. Maybe there needs to be an HMGS Northeast and an HMGS Mid-Atlantic?

Move it to Boston. That way I can visit the "Old Ironsides" (she's been closed the last two times I was in the area).

Otherwise, just pick a place and quit whining.

You're out of luck on "Old Ironsides", as the Constitution went in for a complex three year over haul back in January. So no visitors for another three years!

By the way; has anyone in HMGS checked out the construction schedules on the interstate systems between D.C. and Boston over the next three years? Might take that into consideration before you plan on moving conventions around. That's just a passing thought!

Throwing this into the ring like a steak into a roomful of hungry fight-trained pitbulls, has anyone looked into the "Greater Philadelphia Expo Center" in Oaks, PA, just about 5 miles west of the VFCC?

phillyexpocenter.com

Of course, there are no included or even adjacent hotels/motels, and I have no clue as to what the asking price for a weekend event might be.

Move it to Phoenix.

capncarp: I understand that they looked at that venue during our move to Valley Forge and Fredericksburg. From what I remember, there are insufficient hotels nearby to handle our attendees. From what I recall, there are no attached hotels, and very few within 2-3 miles. Much worse than folks have been complaining about at other venues.

Move it to Gary, Ind. Just a thought.

To be fair, since I come from Houston, the only thing that matters to me is how convenient an airport is to the venue.

Fredericksburg is marginal.

An hour to get to the airport here. Then security. Then a flight (three-four hours). Then luggage, the rental car, and finally driving through the delight that is DC area traffic… not so fun.

So far, Valley Forge was my favorite of the three venues I have attended. I know why that's out now, but I sure do miss it.

Valley Forge was my favorite of the three venues I have attended. I know why that's out now, but I sure do miss it.

Is it?

Please stop the insanity!!!

Lets do it in my backyard. Just north of Baltimore (Riot free zone).I have just under 2 acres, bring a tent and a table…the wife can cook breakfast…hot dogs on the grill for dinner, everyone pitch in 15bucks for food and "spot-a-pot" rental…showers via garden hose. Don't pet the dog, he's not very social…neither are my kids.

Finally, someone has presented a reasonable alternative!!!
Thank you Stepman3. We'll get the contract papers written up immediately!

What?! Finished after only 24 postings?? Thought it would go to at least twice that number.

"Don't pet the dog, he's not very social…neither are my kids."

Great! We can use them in positions that require tact and lots of public interaction!

I agree as well, Though I have enjoyed the Frederickburg area if attendence keep falling it will have to move. It needs to be where the population and potential goers live.

All I am saying is that Fredericksburg is the northeast. To me.

Everything is relative. To the yankees that think the world ends at the jersey shore, it might as well be Alabama. In 1863. :D

If the Confederates had been able to surround Mobile Bay with DC-area traffic, Farragut would still be cooling his jets in the Gulf.

Perhaps the question becomes, whom do you inconvenience more, the people coming from the south, or those from the north? If based just on attendance, I think you could make a strong case that by inconveniencing the people from the north has caused a sizable drop in attendance.

HMGS-South, as I understand it, services that part of the country with wargaming events. No similar HMGS entity exists to locally serve the Northeast, an area with a very high population density; we have traditionally relied upon HMGS-East for that purpose. That being so, HMGS-East's apparent focus upon re-locating its center of gravity southward is a puzzlement.

Is it perhaps time to establish an HMGS-Northeast? A fair question, I think.

B

While we do hold two conventions a year (RECON last weekend in April and HURRICON last weekend in September) our conventions are in Orlando. Our primary demographic comes from Florida, Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina. Though we draw folks from throughout the country, and indeed throughout the world (recent visitors include Singapore and the UK) it is a stretch to say we service the same part of the country as a convention centered in Virginia does.

Perhaps the question becomes, whom do you inconvenience more, the people coming from the south, or those from the north? If based just on attendance, I think you could make a strong case that by inconveniencing the people from the north has caused a sizable drop in attendance.

This should be looked at as a simple business decision. I feel the question to ask is this – where do we get the most attendance? If it's in FB, then leave HCon there. If the attendance is declining, move it to where your customer base is.

This isn't about North\ South, it's about ensuring the future growth and success of a convention.

Is it perhaps time to establish an HMGS-Northeast? A fair question, I think.

If HCon does move back north (as of now that's a big "if") and if people still want to host a convention in FB, then yes, perhaps it is time for HMGS-Northeast.

Marc33594 – I am not suggesting that a convention in VA services the South. The point I seek to make is that the South has HMGS-South, while the Northeast has no HMGS presence and relies upon the centrally located HMGS-East for convention support. With the southward shift from Lancaster to Fredericksburg, what was a 6 hour drive from MA has become an 11 hour drive. This shift has moved HCon further from the densest part of the East Coast population and closer to a region already supported by another HMGS chapter. I'm basically asking why it was performed and what that might portend for us Northeast gamers when the Host goes bye-bye. I'm convinced that sometime in the very near future Distlefink will be the site of a large excavation pit for new construction. What then? Northeast gamers need to face that prospect and perhaps establishment of an HMGS-Northeast chapter is the sensible answer.

B

Well, to add to your point, there is also HMGS-MidSouth which runs Nashcon in Tennessee. So if point is access to at least regional conventions under the HMGS banner than yes, well represented. Also Siege of Augusta which I believe MidSouth supports.

When I first heard of this move, I hoped that it would work out because I like the area a great deal and also like the convention center, it is worlds ahead of the Host.

Going on four years later, the influx of gamers from the South hasn't happened, or if it has, the loss of gamers from the North hasn't been made up for.

It's really too bad, hopefully attendance will go up at some point and if not and it has to be moved again, I have no clue where it will land that will make the majority of the gamers who attend it happy.

Time will tell.

Well, as in most such things, the bottomline is what will be the biggest factor. If the current FB site is profitable (even with a smaller turnout), while a more northern and similar site is not (even with a supposedly larger turnout), then the decision is fairly black and white.

And, IIRC, the decision to move to FB was driven primarily by the paucity of sites that best met the criteria for H'con. (So if you don't like the site, blame your local ConVis Bureau for not building a H'con friendly site).

How's this for an idea (just to mix things up):

Move one of the current Host cons to the northeast to fill that supposed gap. Like it or not, the Host is falling apart before our eyes at an ever increasing pace and a move will have to be made (or the cons just go away; that too is a possibility).

And one more idea (and this one will really put the fox among the hens):

Declare H'con a NATIONAL con and do away with any regional link. It already is the defacto National con. So just acknowledge the fact, place in the best site possible and move on.

And if you don't like either one, COME UP WITH YOUR OWN…

Well, as in most such things, the bottomline is what will be the biggest factor. If the current FB site is profitable (even with a smaller turnout), while a more northern and similar site is not (even with a supposedly larger turnout), then the decision is fairly black and white.

Right now it shows as profitable because they're bleeding the dealers dry. Let's fix that then look at the numbers.

Declare H'con a NATIONAL con and do away with any regional link. It already is the defacto National con. So just acknowledge the fact, place in the best site possible and move on.

I don't see how declaring this a "national" convention will benefit. Right now the demographics point to the NE. I would look for anyplace north of DC and I think you'll have an increase in attendance. And a drop in dealer fees. A win – win for all :)

"Right now it shows as profitable because they're bleeding the dealers dry. Let's fix that then look at the numbers."

It's not just the dealers, but the attendees as well. The one day admission for a member is $25. USD Considering the traffic on Friday and Saturday, and the cost of the entrance fee – good luck with drawing the one-dayers as they have in the past.

To be fair, fees were hiked when it moved to VFCC and have sustained for the most part.

The other unspoken pressure here too is the fact Hcon used to be the flagship for HMGS. Given the loss of attendees and dealers, it is harder to justifying that title.

It's not just the dealers, but the attendees as well. The one day admission for a member is $25. USD USD Considering the traffic on Friday and Saturday, and the cost of the entrance fee – good luck with drawing the one-dayers as they have in the past.

This is where my point of view differs. I've felt for a while now that the convention is undercharging the members. I think 25.00 for a one day pass is reasonable.

The other unspoken pressure here too is the fact Hcon used to be the flagship for HMGS. Given the loss of attendees and dealers, it is harder to justifying that title.

That title went down the drain a while ago.If they're still applying that to Historicon they should drop it.

The other unspoken pressure here too is the fact Hcon used to be the flagship for HMGS. Given the loss of attendees and dealers, it is harder to justifying that title.

Well, as for titles, they (or anyone) can call it any damn thing they want. I know I don't care and I'm sure I'm not the only one. 'Flagship' con, 'National' con, 'Da Big One' con; it really doesn't matter, now does it.

As for the fall off in dealers. Well, for one thing, there aren't as many dealers out there anymore. The Great Recession wasn't kind to specialty, niche marketers. That's a fact. And in today's market, if a dealer has an active, robust virtual presence, what's the point of incurring the expense of schlepping his goods to a con? Sure, he may lose some potential sales, but he saves a whole heck of lot of added expense. If I was still in the biz, I know that's what I'd do.

And I keep hearing how H'con MUST move (for all and varied reasons). But I never hear WHERE (except some vague 'get it back north' line). Ya want it moved, then get some options….

All in all, an interesting discussion, but rather pointless, dotcha know….

Coastal2 makes a very good point.

All of this hand wringing about how attendance at Historicon is dropping and dealers are dropping out too may have little to do with the move and more to do with attrition in the hobby.

Dealers retire, go out of business and pass away, it's a fact of life. Not just in this hobby, but in all hobbies.

Also, same is true for attendees; some get out of the hobby, slow down in their purchasing, get sick and sadly, pass away.

Look at Fall In and Cold Wars; there are some dealers and attendees who are not coming to either of those conventions and low and behold, both are in the NORTHEAST.

I'm seeing it in the toy soldier side of the hobby too; toy soldier shows are shrinking, both in dealers attending and customers showing up.

Aside from the attrition, like Coastal2 said, costs are rising, gas, tolls, meals, hotels aren't cheap, dealers are dropping out of shows due to costs vs profits.

Also, I read comments on this forum all the time from wargamers about how they don't bother going to conventions anymore, they stay home and shop on line, they no longer have the need to see items in person, they can just sit at home and order on line.

The hobby is changing, as are the shopping habits of people, the internet has killed the Mom and Pop stores, maybe it's slowly killing the conventions too.

"This is where my point of view differs. I've felt for a while now that the convention is undercharging the members."

It depends on your perspective and why you attend. Many used to attend just to day shop. $25 USD is rather outrageous to charge for that. If you game while there, perhaps not. I rarely game, usually put on games, so for me, and many others, the fee is ridiculous and just another reason not to go. I believe one day attendees have been gutted since the move to FCC.

coastal2, I agree with the "where" part, but to add on to your post and Double Gs – with the number of dealers and attendees continuing to decline – one of two things must happen, either the costs continue to rise to sustain the con at FCC to cover the shortfall of income, or they have to move it to a cheaper facility. Simple logic dictates that. After four years at FCC, anyone hoping for an increase in attendance is living in fantasy land – for all the reasons Double G lays out in his post, and the fact that Hcon has lost attendance in the last six out of seven years (it was down the last year at the Host IIRC).

All of this hand wringing about how attendance at Historicon is dropping and dealers are dropping out too may have little to do with the move and more to do with attrition in the hobby……………….Also, same is true for attendees; some get out of the hobby, slow down in their purchasing, get sick and sadly, pass away.

I'm not sure I buy that. Every other convention that I attend seems to be growing (Cold Wars, Fall-In, NJCon, the Weekend, Little Wars, Adepticon and Hot Lead).

For example, Little Wars is moving locations next year. But, they are not moving away from their attendee base. Want to bet that they increase attendence again?

……..and the fact that Hcon has lost attendance in the last six out of seven years (it was down the last year at the Host IIRC).

Slightly, less than 3%. The last 3 years at the Host had an average attendence of 3500. We've been no where near that since. The biggest declines in attendence have been in the first years of moves: 2010 to the VFCC and 2012 to the FCC. The correlation seems strong.

Unfortunately, I find my old gang that used to attend just doesn't have they interest in attending they once did. They all still game though.

I find the same thing. A lot of people just burn out from attending the conventions.