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"Did the Black Prince tank ever deploy in WWII" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Texas Grognard03 May 2015 9:55 p.m. PST

Did the Black Prince infantry tank ever deploy to the WWII battlefield in Europe or India or was it only an experimental prototype? I ask this as the Royal Army abandoned the infantry and cruiser tank concepts but used Churchill tanks all the way through Korea. Thanks and salut y'all!

Bruce the Texas Grognard

kustenjaeger03 May 2015 10:15 p.m. PST

Greetings

6 prototypes only, appearing around May 1945.

Note that in Korea the British Army (there is no 'Royal' army as only regiments or corps can have the honorific) the Churchills used were Crocodiles but used as gun tanks, alongside Cromwells and Centurions.

Regards

Edward

Mr Pumblechook03 May 2015 10:49 p.m. PST

Off on a tangent, one of the interesting qualities of the Churchill was it's exceptional hill climbing capability.

Probabaly rather useful in Korea.

Frankly, for a infantry support tank, a 17 pounder armed tank would be a step back: it was overspecialised as a pure tank killer.

Martin Rapier03 May 2015 11:34 p.m. PST

I think the idea of the Black Prince was more along the lines of a British Tiger. However as the Centurian had the same gun, armour of a comparable thickness and was considerably faster, the idea was scrapped.

bsrlee04 May 2015 4:17 a.m. PST

The Centurian had a 20 pdr of 84mm calibre while the 17 pdr was 76.2mm, as was the '77' fitted to the later WW2 British tanks.

shaun from s and s models04 May 2015 4:35 a.m. PST

the first cents had the 17pdr gun not the 20pdr

Oddball04 May 2015 6:02 a.m. PST

Sure, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, but it is the British Army. What?

Tachikoma04 May 2015 6:09 a.m. PST

The British Army traces its lineage to the New Model Army, which was raised by Parliament during the Civil Wars.

22ndFoot04 May 2015 6:31 a.m. PST

Oddball,

Parliament must consent, at least once every five years, to permit a standing army in peacetime. This is a requirement of the Bill of Rights of 1689 and is, essentially, James II's fault for pushing his luck in the aftermath of the Civil War and Restoration. Soldiers swear allegiance to the sovereign but are subject to the authority of Parliament. It is a bit of a constitutional dodge but explains why the Army is not "Royal".

wargamer604 May 2015 7:32 a.m. PST

That's an interesting historical explanation 22nd , once heard never forgotten.

number405 May 2015 8:43 p.m. PST

Quite simply put, it is because not all the regiments fought for the king in the civil war. It's a little like the US Army which has some units that can trace their heritage back to the Confederate Army.

Oddly enough, the Royal Navy was solidly for parliament…..

link

22ndFoot06 May 2015 7:14 a.m. PST

Contrary to common misconception, and regardless of the "heritage" of some units, the constitutional foundation of the British Army has nothing to do with the Civil War – except that the "rule of the major generals" engendered a general distrust of standing armies – and everything to do with the Glorious Revolution.

The army in its current form dates entirely from the reigns of Charles II and James II. In fact, no British infantry regiment (with the exception of the Royal Scots, discussed below) was raised prior to 1661.

Even when units with Parliamentarian heritage – only Monck's Coldstream Regiment and, depending how you look at it, the Blues and Royals – were taken into the King's service, they mustered out and were then engaged as a "new" unit. The Royal Scots – Pontius Pilot's Bodyguard – which was raised in 1633 by Charles I spent the Civil War and Interregnum in French service, and only returning to England in 1661 to fill the game between the disbandment of the New Model and the creation of a new army.

When James II was king he sought to expand, mainly in 1685, and keep a standing army and this was perceived as his way of imposing his unwelcome will on the country, particularly with respect to religion. The deep distrust of James caused the Glorious Revolution and, on the accession of William & Mary, Parliament insisted on further limiting the power of the Crown in the Bill of Rights which states, inter alia : "That the raising or keeping a standing Army within the Kingdome in time of Peace unless it be with Consent of Parlyament is against Law."

William further expanded the army in 1689 to fight James and several regiments were raised subject to the Bill of Rights provisions at this time including my own, the 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment of Foot, raised on the Roodee at Chester by the Duke of Norfolk.

The Bill of Rights is still good law and the consent of Parliament is granted at least every five years by an Armed Forces Act – there is, in fact, a new one due by 2016. The effect of the provision and subsequent acts is to maintain the Army under Parliamentary control and accountability although the soldiers themselves owe their allegiance to the Sovereign.

This is actually a fundamental of English constitutional law and while it is correct to say that the Royal Navy was for Parliament, this really just demonstrates the misconception. The Royal Navy and Royal Air Force are on a completely different constitutional footing.

If you're interested and would like to learn something about the founding of the British Army, there are some very good books – one of the most fun to read is Redcoats and Courtesans: The Birth of the British Army (1660-1690) by Noel T. St. John Williams which appears to be available through Amazon for just a few pounds/dollars.

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