parrskool | 03 May 2015 4:53 a.m. PST |
As a newcomer to small scale (skirmish type) games… which rules are best, Disposable Heroes or NUts ? OR…………….? |
MajorB | 03 May 2015 5:03 a.m. PST |
which rules are best, Chain of Command. |
Who asked this joker | 03 May 2015 6:52 a.m. PST |
Nuts! gives you small scale unit actions. That is, you will command a squad+ usually in a basic game. They are solo-friendly rules. There is a built in random campaign system. DH, is aimed at a Platoon+. It has some detail to it. Perhaps not quite as solo friendly but could handle up to a company of figures. I've played DH at a convention. It moved pretty well. Armor rules worked well. Spotting rules seemed a little cumbersome. I have played 5150 a few times which is similar to Nuts. It played quickly. It was a little dice heavy when it came to making reaction tests which is the core of the game. Both rules sets work for what they try to accomplish. Hope that helps, John |
Hampshire Hog | 03 May 2015 7:55 a.m. PST |
Chain of Command for Platoon level. I Ain't Been Shot Mum for Company level (it's still 1:1, so a skirmish in my book). |
parrskool | 03 May 2015 8:09 a.m. PST |
Thanks. I appreciate that CoC, & IABSM give a more "realistic" representation, but I don't get on with the intricacies of those rules….. which seem a little slower than I prefer. |
nnascati | 03 May 2015 8:21 a.m. PST |
Parrskool, Give "Point Blank" a try, it is the true skirmish version of Disposable Heroes, and seems to be something of a labor if love for Keith Stine the author. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 03 May 2015 8:30 a.m. PST |
Parrskool – Here's a free download of Chain Reaction – a vanilla version of the Reaction System used in NUTS. link NUTS is man to man where each figure functions separately and the game plays fast, especially when using bad tactics.I can't comment on how NUTS compares to other rules because I have not played them so would not think to compare them. Of course, that doesn't stop other people from doing it. :) I'm sure you'll find something, there's a lot of great rules out there. Here's a sample AAR. link |
Extra Crispy | 03 May 2015 9:18 a.m. PST |
I'm a big fan of the Nuts/2 Hour system in general. The big issue I see with it is gamers enjoy it when it's platoon vs platoon, then complain when they run the Battle of the Bulge it bogs down. Well, duh. Once you have played it a few times a player can command up to a platoon. Keep the vehicles to one or two per side max. The Fat Lardies rules give a good game and play pretty quick but I'm not a huge fan of their command system. Bolt Action is a super-simple "generic" game with WW2 models. Fun and breezy if you just want to roll dice and blow stuff up. |
SBminisguy | 03 May 2015 9:59 a.m. PST |
NUTS! is a squad-level WW2 skirmish game based on THW's "Chain Reaction" rule system, which eliminates many of the disadvantages of standard IGOUGO systems. In the game each player basically plays a squad leader, and starts the game with a core squad or vehicle that is "his" for the game or the campaign. Moral/training is represented by "Reputation" levels for each figure or unit, running from 1-6, which are the target numbers for dice rolls in the game. Each figure is an individual in the game, each vehicle is crewed by individual figures (TC, Driver, Gunner, etc.)that have a role in the operation of the vehicle and make relevant dice rolls for morale, shooting, crossing obstacles, and so on. The leader figure has some special advantages, and each figure in the core squad has a special attribute like "Crack Shot" or "Poser" which helps or hurts in certain situations, so there's a light roleplaying element. The system scales well to platoon vs platoon level games, but like most skirmish games doesn't scale easily to company sized games. The Chain Reaction system uses leadership rolls to determine who goes first (and certain dice combinations result in reinforcement rolls during the game), but during any given action phase figures will react to developments on the table based on the "Reaction" table system. Figures that see an enemy move into line of sight will take a "In Sight" test, for example to see what their reaction is – do they make aimed fire, do they take a snapshot, do they fail to react? Figures that come under fire make a "Received Fire" test to see if they shoot back, duck for cover, panic and run, etc. Firefights are also conducted through resolution, until one side "wins" by killing the other side or forcing them to duck out of the fight. This means that figures engaged in combat *always* take some kind of action, there's never a time in the game where you're lined up to nail your opponent…but your card didn't come up in time and you stood there and got shot, or the guy playing the "leader" didn't have enough action points to let your unit move. So there's always a good flow to the game, and you don't have total control over your figures. I recall one game, from the "Kampfgruppe Peiper" Battle of the Bulge campaign book in which I had a concealed US 57mm ATG, and a Panther tank was approaching down a road. As a player I planned to take the shot after the Panther turned to follow a bend in the road and take a flank shot…but the "In Sight" test for the unit meant they blew the ambush by firing on it frontally. Doh! They must have panicked and shot as soon as the scary tank approached. Don't get me wrong, tanks *are* scary and get a good treatment in the rules as well. Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a tank assault! Also, the first (only time!) I ever used proper infantry tactics against a tank in urban combat, and it worked, was using NUTS. In a Bastogne scenario a Panther pushed into a US-held town, where it finished movement near a squad of mine. Part of the squad were in an upper story and fired from the flank of the Panther, suppressing the TC and forcing the tank to button up while another element charged the rear of the tank, chucked a demo pack underneath and BOOM! Dead Panther! After that all players saw the value of combined arms. The system also incorporates a campaign and mission builder system, so you can see your troops gain experience and raise their Reputation level up in the game (or they may lower their Rep if they run away!), replacements for lost figures, battle and mission builders to create a spontaneous game, etc. Overall, NUTS! is a great skirmish rule system that lets you play fairly accurate WW2 skirmish battles, have a lot of fun and play your game to conclusion in a couple of hours. There's also a large number of supplement and campaign books for the system as well. …
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45thdiv | 03 May 2015 10:10 a.m. PST |
I would go with Nuts. DH has odd things like pin point accuracy with mortars. The reaction system of Nuts takes a bit to get use to, but plays well for small skirmish game. Matthew |
parrskool | 03 May 2015 11:58 a.m. PST |
Hmm….. is a hard copy of NUTS available in UK ? |
peterx | 03 May 2015 11:59 a.m. PST |
Parrskool, I have played both DH and NUTs and I have enjoyed both. However, I prefer DH to NUTS. Let me tell you two reasons. Reason one: I like playing with more than one or two tanks or AFV on the board in a game. IN NUTS, I feel like the modeling of each crew member's action in the tank bogs things down in a game with more than one armor unit on the field. DH gets my armor moving and firing more quickly, and I feel it models the WW2 armor action quite well. Reason two: I dislike that game mechanism in NUTs that forces some miniatures on the board to be "frozen in place" on for that turn. It feels strange and lacks fluidity, and doesn't feel "realistic". If you roll a 4 or 5 or a d6 in NUTS, then all subgroups led by a soldier with a "rep" of 4 or 5 can move, shoot, etc. If you have a group or single soldiers with a rep of 3 out on the board, then they may not move, shoot or hide, or anything for that turn. It happens to my soldiers in each NUTS game I have played and it continues to bother me. The rep 3 soldiers in that situation should duck, go to ground, get in cover, run to the nearest officer (rep 4, 5 or 6) or something. Not just stand in the middle of a field or town with their bums hanging out to get shot at. That's my NUTS pet peeve. DH doesn't have any rules glitches as far as I can see. Both games are easy to learn, well supported online, fairly quick to play, easy to teach to newer players, end up with fairly "realistic" WW2 results and tactics. Play both and see what you like. |
Weasel | 03 May 2015 12:00 p.m. PST |
Haven't played DH, but Nuts is a lot of fun. Probably one of the two ww2 games I've clocked the most hours in, and one of the few games that caught on immediately with my non-wargaming friends. It can take a few plays to get the hang of how it all fits together, just follow along the examples in the book and you'll be fine. It CAN play very big games, but I think it works best in the squad-to-platoon range where things still feel pretty personal. It IS very dice-roll intensive so hope you enjoy rolling dice :) The rolls are quick to resolve though. Not a lot of counting modifiers or any of that. |
MajorB | 03 May 2015 1:18 p.m. PST |
I love how folks answer the OP question which was Nuts or DH. Well actually, the OP question was: "which rules are best, Disposable Heroes or NUts ? OR…………….?" I thought the "OR" was significant … |
Weasel | 03 May 2015 1:54 p.m. PST |
To be honest, it doesn't matter much :-) Someone could ask "what's the best rules for colonial skirmish battles?" and some of the suggestions will be Full Thrust and Spearhead ;) |
Tekawiz | 03 May 2015 1:58 p.m. PST |
If you liked the TV series Combat! or if you played the old Ambush! board game in which both involved man to man combat, then I would suggest Nuts. In Nuts you'll find yourself generating a narrative and becoming attached to your men. |
Pizzagrenadier | 03 May 2015 3:03 p.m. PST |
I've heard plenty of critique of DH over years as one of the authors. Most of it fair and valid. But pin point accuracy with mortars is a new one to me. In most cases to hit rolls are around a 1 or 2 on a D10 to hit. Though there is always a morale effect even in the case of misses. Not sure how you could get pin point accuracy with mortars in DH… Sometimes you gotta wonder if people are reading the same rule books you publish or what :) Anyhoo…carry on. Not fair of me to wade in on the discussion of which one's better, being one of the authors and all. Both seem to have found their markets over the years. |
Simo Hayha | 03 May 2015 3:12 p.m. PST |
battleground wwii as another option. Very detailed |
Weasel | 03 May 2015 3:15 p.m. PST |
It's worth noting that certain games are just more popular on certain forums than on others, for reasons that are usually pretty random. TMP tends to have a lot of THW fans, while I imagine the DH fans hang out somewhere else. |
Pizzagrenadier | 03 May 2015 3:22 p.m. PST |
If you find out Weasel, let us know ;) TMP has fans of all kinds of systems. CoC and Bolt Action seems to the the current soup du jour. I played CoC once. Nice system. Combat system was decent but the pre game jump off points system is pure brilliance. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 03 May 2015 3:23 p.m. PST |
If you have a group or single soldiers with a rep of 3 out on the board, then they may not move, shoot or hide, or anything for that turn. It happens to my soldiers in each NUTS game I have played and it continues to bother me. The rep 3 soldiers in that situation should duck, go to ground, get in cover, run to the nearest officer (rep 4, 5 or 6) or something. Not just stand in the middle of a field or town with their bums hanging out to get shot at. That never happens as they can always react. If you score a 4 or higher for activation, the Rep 3 cannot act but he can react. In reaction – If the enemy comes into sight – he has a 50/50% chance of firing first most of the time. If he gets fired on he could return fire or duck for cover – not stand out in the open as you say. However, why would you choose to have it out in the open anyway? Always stay in cover when you can and if you have to cross open ground then at least try a fast move and if you can't reach cover, go prone. As for tanks, nope not true. You take the In Sight test (like infantry do) and fire (actually quicker than the infantry do), even if you add the 1 extra dice roll to re-load. The more you play any game the quicker they play and NUTS is like that as well. It's all a matter of preference and with all the rules out there, you'll find something you like. |
Weasel | 03 May 2015 3:57 p.m. PST |
Yeah, it's important to distinguish that while your guys may not actively do things in your turn, that doesn't mean they're not doing anything. Nuts always gives you something to do, no matter which turn it is. Part of how the game works is making sure the rep 3's get herded to positions where they can influence the battle. A few riflemen covering a flank can make all the difference, even if they can't always shoot straight :-) It's a lot like Crossfire in that regard. |
Ethanjt21 | 03 May 2015 7:45 p.m. PST |
I have never played Nuts so I won't make any assumptions about it. All I can say about Nuts is people generally have a high opinion of it and it is well supported online. As far as Disposable Heroes is concerned, it is my favorite WW2 skirmish game. I like DH because it plays very fast once you get the rules down and it gives results I would deem 'accurate' for the situations I am trying to game. Some basic info: DH uses IGOUGO activation. It's not like 40K IGOUGO though. One player activates one unit (squad, lmg team, mortar, tank, etc) and then their opponent activates one of theirs, until all units are activated. Shooting is fairly simple, with minimal rolling needed. Weapon ranges are pretty standard for 28mm skirmish. The game puts heavy emphasis on pinning and fire/maneuver, which is important because those two things are the backbone of infantry tactics. The pinning system/morale is simple and brilliant. The vehicle rules are well done, but even still I usually only employ 1 or 2 in a game, sometimes none. On that subject though, the main rulebook will give you data cards for a good group of 'standard' vehicles you would need, and the army books are stuffed with dozens of vehicles from the rare to the prolific. DH is a great rule set imho. I have a few rule sets but DH has always been my favorite and the favorite ww2 skirmish of the guys I play with. The rulebook may look a bit crammed/flat compared to modern rulebooks but that's because its all data, no chrome. DH is also very well supported by the authors on their yahoo group, who routinely answer questions and give guidance. I should also add DH is aimed at 1 platoon v 1 platoon, but I've played company v company with 6 players which we finished in 5 hours. If you want a more zoomed in battle, try DH Point Blank, which uses most of the core mechanics of DH and applies them to squad level combat. |
Chuckaroobob | 03 May 2015 8:09 p.m. PST |
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Rodrick Campbell | 04 May 2015 10:48 a.m. PST |
I've played both and I like the infantry rules better in Nuts!. I like the fluidity and not being in total control of the troops' reactions. Disposable Heroes' vehicle rules are far superior. The spotting is good. The way armor and penetration is handled is really good. It's not just an all-or-nothing hit/ kill system. It has good depth without being too crunchy and time consuming. Get them both and merge them. |
Dave Crowell | 04 May 2015 1:39 p.m. PST |
For solo I give the edge to Nuts! For vehicle heavy games I give the edge to DH. I haven't played Chain of Command. |
SBminisguy | 05 May 2015 7:18 a.m. PST |
Most of my NUTS games tend to be at a platoon per side, and with the new NUTS "Hell Hath No Fury" tank supplement you can easily run fairly large tank battles. Here's an AAR of an OstFront game using these rules involving two platoons of German AFVs against a reinforced Soviet tank company: link |