"Using Seleucid figures for Ptolemaic armies?" Topic

Okay guys, I was looking through the Old Glory site and I notice that they have a whole selection of packs for 25mm Seleucids but nothing specifically listed as Ptolemaic – am I right in thinking that generally speaking the Seleucid figures would serve adequately for both armies?

FWIW, I use them as well as Alexander's "Royal Army" type figures for all my Macedonian and Successor needs.

I'm not lazy, per se. I just have a limited amount of funds, and have to get as much variety out of an army as is possible. So pikes are pikes, Cavalry is cavalry, etc.

Pikemen wearing trousers would generally be limited to the eastern empires, the Selucids and Bactrian Greeks. However I tend to use them in other armies if I run out of tunic clad phalangites.

So what would you use for Ptolemaic phalangites, John? Alexandrian era ones?

Other than the trousers issue, I would avoid any Seleucid figures that have an anchor symbol on them. This was a Seleucid symbol, derived from a birthmark on Seleukos' leg, IIRC.

Otherwise, any differences are minor, and are based in such fragmentary evidence that we can't say for sure they were Seleucid-specific. I'm thinking here of the shields with a circular pattern of crescents on them, which are commonly sculpted on "Seleucid" pikes.

Gripping Beast have some specifically called out as Ptolemaic. I'm not sure what makes them particularly Ptolemaic – in the pics they have different hats and a rather noticeable application of lipstick and eye shadow.

link

I've thought about magnetizing shields to pop on and off for various Greek factions. I think the starburst is still pretty generic throughout Successors, but I may be wrong on that.

The Seleucid phalangites in the shirts and trousers are the decedents of Alexander's Persian phalangites and are more for "Asia Minor" than Egypt. With that said, I believe the Ptolemies from time to time recruited or took on ex Seleucids if I recall.

Ptolemaics had Guards, Macedonian/Greek and native Egyptian phalangites at various times. I would use classic Macedonian or successor phalangites for guards, 1st Corps for the native Egyptians and maybe one or two units of Seleucids for ex-Seleucid or phalangites from Syria, etc.

For the line Ptolemaic phalangites, there is a company, and I do not remember who, that makes a phalangite in the linen cuirass that looks a little short with a longer set of scales at the bottom based on a Ptolemaic example (from the WRG book). I am sure the throbbing brain that is TMP knows who this is…

If I am remembering correctly, MSS07 from 1st Corps also matches the Macedonian phalangites of the Ptolemies. But, you might want to double check that.

Nice ideas and a lot of useful background, thanks! I'm trying to use OG since I renewed my OG army membership in February and haven't placed an order yet lol, so I went ahead and ordered a bag each of PPS-01 Seleucid Phalangites and PPA-01 Alexandrian Phalangites to get the show on the road – we'll see how they turn out! Plenty of army left to build after that lol!

Bob; take a look at Jeff Jonas website he has a very large Ptolemaic army and I'm sure he states what figures he used.

There is a useful book on the evolution of Ptolemaic gear. It's in French but the pictures are very useful. "Le Soldat Lagide" by Stephane Thion.

The late Allen Curtis helped me with my Ptolemaic phalanx project.

link

They are indeed fanciful representations of the "native" phalangites. They might more accurately portray rebellion forces, or even the forces claimed to be Egyptian phalangites at Gaza 312 BC.

Still I like them because they are completely separated from regular or "Macedonian" cleruch phalanxes. I would say that Polemarch does indeed have the best 'alternate' phalangite view with their line. However Aventine has some models that look later more than Pyrrhic.

As for trousers that is quite a bone of contention.. if you are going with Old Glory I would just use their regular Macedonians rather than trousers. The trousers may have been troops of the pantodapoi… and the notion that the Seleucids wore trousers is flimsy and unsupported… remember these were state equipped forces so they would be wearing what state equipped phalangites wore…. they key differentiation was usually shields. Some experts claim that capes are useless when combined with pikes-- and that may be true-- but caped figures do look the part of elites in Successor armies….

Part of how you organize your miniature army is based on availability, expense, and purpose.

Availability-- yes there are some good 28mm phalangites models that are based on some reearch and are at least good guesses-- the Polemarch and Aventine and 1st Corps come into that category.

Expense--- well if that is the only criteria then Old Glory and plastic Warlord figures are your best bet.

Purpose--- as stated above.. most phalangites when well painted can be reused in all pike armies…. some silver shields unit may only be practical for Seleucid guards or Eumenid armies… but most others are useable… again the trousers are most accurate for the early Diadochian wars… but still folks have such a universal idea that trousers equal Seleucid it's difficult to argue the point*… so read no further if you wish.

So purpose can be determined as-- general purpose-- the majority of units geared to cross purpose armies, or singular purpose--- units that are geared to a specific army or timeframe-- that's where I put my Ptolemaic phalanx… they don't get used in a Seleucid army… and then further the elite units that flesh out a specific army-- such as silver shields-- which would not be part of any Ptolemaic or Antigonid army.

* The point. As stated, the gear was state provided… so phalangites did not 'come as they are'… the settlers and macedonian heritage Syrians were Greeks and Greek style was the Seleucids norm, even if Asian influences were there. Most of the Seleucid cavalry were from other ethnic groups.. but the infantry phalanx was mostly --at least the front line troops ethnic Greek heritage troops… there is an argument that the rear ranks could be augmented by levies… or the levy phalanxes themselves were not Greek… but these troops would be further east on the frontiers-- where phalanxes were less useful … so that's the argument against trousers… your mileage may vary.