"Conservative sci fier" Topic

I'm not a big fan of expanded universes,

Exception is Star wars for two reasons.

1. It's just 6 movies, 12 hours can not give a deep universe, especaly given how shallow the movies are with no real depth, they are fantacy in space.

2. I honestly don't care that much, it's not my thing, there is only one really good movie and a few very good games. that its. Perfectly ok fantacy with cool action ect. But not my thing. So I'm not that invested.

But for Star Trek with over 700 epiodes 10 movies. You have a deep universe.

My conservatisim manly shows it self when you argu about the universes, I do not agree to stuff not from the series or movies. And in games, computer games ect.

Most extreme example is when I play a computer game with klingons, My klingon fleets conists of 3 ships, Birds of prey, Vor'cha and negh'var.

With birds of prey beeing 90% of my force. Why?
Thats what the kligon fleets concist of in DS9. Lots of birds of prey, a few vor'cha and like 1 or 2 Negh'var.

The computer games uses the expanded universe)because most people find it boring to just play with 3 ship classes) But not me.

Same with Federation, You have more to choose from, My fleets are Excelsior class(old ship, not that powerfull by DS9 but there was still lots of them) Nebula class, Galaxy class. Thats my main fleet, I make 1 or 2 sovregins, 1-2 defiants, 1-2 intrepid. I also some times make akria class as it's seen some times.

So boring.

I also got annoyed by Star Trek Online.

1 they moved it 25 years into the future,
2. lots of non canon ships(I again only play with canon ships)
3. Klingons and Federation at war, I found that iffy given the strog bond they had at the end of DS9.

Naturaly I don't consider the new "star Trek" movies as star trek. I bearly concider enterprise as canon.

Is Star Wars the Exception or the example? Sounds like you don't like the SW extended universe either. Just playing devil's advocate, but weren't there dozens (perhaps many more) of episodes of the Clone Wars cartoon that would count as part of your SW cannon.

What I'm getting from your post is that unless you "take it all" everyone's opinion of what is "cannon" is going to be pretty arbitrary.

I love both ST and SW, yet I have an entirely different take on it. ST, especially starting from 3rd or 4th season TNG of onward, became ever more monolithic: all Klingons care about honor, all Ferengi are greedy capitalists, all Romulans are scheming imperialists, all half-breeds and androids want to become more human, etc. Good luck finding a Klingon who was a renowned watercolors artist or a Romulan working for Medical Officers Without Borders. I largely blame the unholy alliance of Berman/Braga, but it still doesn't change my feeling that, as the ST universe has proceeded, it has become ever more constrained and more locked into orthodoxy. If you've met one Jem'Hadar, you've meet them all. One of the few bright spots amongst the ST panoply is DS9's Garak, the Cardassian ex-spy who now works as a tailor; he definitely isn't constrained by the militancy of the rest of his race.

SW, on the other hand, has an advantage because it takes place in a chaotic universe of thousands (or millions) of inhabited worlds, where convention and orthodoxy really don't mean anything. B-Wing fighters and Nebulon frigates don't make any sense because they don't have to. The aliens who built them just liked them that way or had some weird inherent cultural reason for doing so. Jabba the Hutt may seem improbable, but in a universe with infinite diversity in infinite combinations, it's not impossible to conceive of a race of giant slugs. Equally improbable are ST's hundreds of races who are essentially human beings with weird foreheads who all speak English.

I love them both, but I really don't think, for all its prolific episodes and spin-offs, that ST is any deeper than SW. Somewhat the opposite, in fact.

I dont agree, many non human characters are deep, You meet good cardasians, bad ones, in between ones. Damar is a deep conflicted character, Garak is in a leauge of his own.

Some You often see infighting in the jem'hadar because they are diffrent. Infact except for the ones that are just jem hadar redshirts most are quite destinct.

Not all ferengi are greedy capitalists, Infact of the main ferengi you meet, only Quark is totaly the archotype, and even he can find things he care about more then latium, Nog is a star fleet officer, and while he has the ferangi buissness sense, he is not just greedy capitalist, Rom dosn't really care about wealth at all(tho he him self dosn't know it in the early episodes)
Their mother fights for Female rights ect.
Hell in the magnificent ferengi you meet a ferengi that onlty cares about killing and dangure.

Of all those you mention only the romulans are lacking in diversity. And still there there are excpetions.

javelin makes some very sound points, but I'm more siding with Gunfreak, I have to say (especially regarding the recent two 'trek' films).

Garak was indeed just what the newer Trek needed. And, I guess, the Maquis from the (I have to say fairly turgid) Voyager (aka Lost in Space).

But my first love was always the original series and some of the recent attempts to recreate that (Continuing Voyages being a fine example) and the upcoming Axanar just make me hanker after it all the more.

Broadly speaking, I tend not to do 'non-canon'. The only sticking point I have is what is actually canon with old Trek. Three legged aliens in the animated series?

Hmmmmm

John T

[q]I love them both, but I really don't think, for all its prolific episodes and spin-offs, that ST is any deeper than SW. Somewhat the opposite, in fact. [/q]
JavelinI98,
I agree with you to a point. I'm not particularly involved in either universe, though as a youth I liked SW alot more. However, taken as a whole (books, movies, tv, games, etc…) I also don't think that one is much deeper than the other.

However, I do agree with Gunfreak that that the ST factions are somewhat more diverse than you give them credit for. I have a tough time with many of the ST TV series' but DS9 was wonderfully gritty and "grey".

That's a difficult question and my answer is that's complicated.

Some cannon frustrates me; couldn't they have done something better than that.

Most extended cannon leave me cold; except when it's brilliant and doesn't.

I try to be ecumenical about such doctrinal questions; after all it's just a hobby, and I try to be a jerk about what I like and don't like. Make more friends that way.

Okay, so maybe I was too harsh in my criticism of ST, but I still feel that SW has a much more open-ended and diverse narrative. In part, that is probably due to the very paucity of canon SW material that Gunfreak mentioned in his opening post. I still love them both!

I think the political battle taking place in the world of fantasy and science fiction right now is probably the saddest thing that I have ever heard of.

Why do politics have to ruin everything?