"How Incompetent Is the Empire’s Military in Star Wars?" Topic

"It depends on what you're considering to be Star Wars. If you're just considering the canon movies, you get a very different picture of the Empire's competence than you do in the expanded universe. You have to consider that the Empire managed to conquer 1.5 million worlds and colonize or exert governance of some kind over nearly 70 million more. That could not be done by a completely incompetent organization. The sheer size and scope were immense—tens of trillions of soldiers in the Army alone, and that's not even including the Stormtroopers.

There is actually a fairly significant discrepancy between the movies and the expanded universe. In the expanded universe, the Stormtrooper corps are elite soldiers and suffered very few significant military defeats. In the movies, they can't hit the broad side of the barn. In the expanded universe, the Imperial Navy is a serious foe and the average TIE fighter is a match for just about any similarly situated opponent. In the movies, they're cannon fodder. In the expanded universe, the Empire wins countless victories on a daily basis. In the movies, they only visibly win one time, in the Battle of Hoth…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Well, I have to question the figures given there.

From what we saw in the first three episodes, the Old Republic had no real military at all. Apparently the individual member worlds could have their own militaries if they wished. In some ways it was like the United States in the 19th century: a very tiny federal military but each of the states had their own militia forces. It seems likely that when the Republic faced a military threat it called upon the member worlds to contribute forces to meet the threat. So, the "Grand Army of the Republic" that Palpatine calls for being created is unprecedented. Which also means that the Imperial army and navy only came into existence about twenty years before Episode IV. You can't build a galaxy-conquering/occupying force in so short a time and expect everything to go smoothly :)

In the KOTOR universe (some considerable time before SW) the Republic had a very considerable military – fleets of battleships, huge armies etc engaged in all out war with the Mandalorians, and later the Sith armies of Revan & Malak. There were planetary militias too.

As one of the Sith observed, "The Republic is falling, it always has, and it always will". So the Republic is riddled with flaws, but it endures. Palpatines empire was very short lived.

The Tie Fighters always gave as good as they got, except when going up against Luke, Han, Chewie, etc. They nailed most of the X-Wings in the battle of the Death Star and were going to win at Endor.

Yes, the crux of the issue is basically whether one takes into account the EU or not. Without the EU, the entire Galactic Civil War is a few key battles where the Empire looks pretty poor. If you take the EU into account the Galactic Civil War is a widespread conflagration with Rebel Sector Forces operating against Imperial targets across known space, with the main Rebel Base and the primary Rebel Fleet acting as coordination centers and rally points. And the Empire wins the day a lot of the time in the EU.

@ScottWashburn- That's an excellent point. But that same force also managed to win the Clone Wars hands-down right after being created, so the Grand Army and the later Imperial Army obviously are able to get it mostly right. :)

@Martin Rapier- The in-EU explanation is that after the Sith are defeated and their empire dismantled the Republic dismantles most of the military and again relies on the Jedi for peacekeeping. So by the time of the prequels the Republic is coming over a millennia-long era of relative peace.

-Will

Except for the people covered by the "Main Character Shield" for story purposes, the Empire is extremely efficient in all their actions.

Except for the people covered by the "Main Character Shield" for story purposes, the Empire is extremely efficient in all their actions.

But are they? When the counter-insurgency situation is getting so badly out of hand that your answer is 'build a giant space station and threaten to blow their planets up' then something has already gone incredibly pear-shaped.

If your solution to the insurgents blowing up your giant battle station is to build a BIGGER one to also threaten to blow their planets up, you obviously have major issues with a military-industrial complex….

Then of course the Empire basically flubbed the blockade of Hoth in TESB, so even without being distracted by giant monuments to the stupidity of man they aren't firing on all cylinders. Maybe that article does have a point….

-Will

I don't think many people give Palpatine the credit he deserves. He was VERY clever in his plots and strategies. In Episode I we see that while maintaining a public face as a wise and respected senator, he is secretly supporting a Separatist faction with which he plans to create a great crisis in the Republic. In Episode II, the crisis comes to full bloom and he manipulates the Senate to make him chancellor and grant him power to raise a huge military force (which he was already raising in secret). In Episode III he uses that military to crush the Jedi and seize power. And it should also be noted that he uses the Separatists to attack loyal planets in the Republic (like on the Wookie planet) which grinds down both the Separatist forces AND the local militias—leaving the new imperial forces supreme in the galaxy. When Anakin wipes out the Separatist command, there is no outside left to oppose him in any meaningful way.

But there could be internal opponents. In Episode IV much is made by critics about the design flaw in the first Death Star. Flaw? That was no flaw! Palpatine foresaw the destruction of the first Death Star and used it to his advantage. Why do you think he wasn't on board? In Ep. IV we see a Governor Tarkin who can order Darth Vader around like a servant. And an unnamed officer who can sneer at Vader and survive. Other officers can openly question the Emperor's decisions. Clearly Palpatine is still working to consolidate his hold on the galaxy and there are some very powerful people in positions within his empire to oppose him. So what does he do? He builds a huge war machine which everyone knows is "The ultimate power in the universe". Since it can destroy a planet, the only safe place to be is on board it! Anyone with any influence at all is going to use it to make sure they are on board—just as the Emperor planned. So when it goes boom, every political threat to the Emperor goes with it.

But the Death Star WAS a useful tool. As we saw in Episode V, even a small group of rebels can build a base with a force field "strong enough to deflect any bombardment" and an ion cannon capable of disabling a Star Destroyer. Imagine what a fully industrialized world could do! Conquering such a world would be an enormous undertaking. But with the Death Star? Kaboom! Problem solved. So the Emperor has another one built. And I am convinced that knowing the fate of the first one, he starts construction of the second Death Star long before the first one was destroyed. After all the second one is more powerful than the first. Why? Just in case his foretelling was wrong and he needs to deal with a batch of rivals on the first Death Star! The man is VERY clever!

Of course it all comes a-cropper in Episode VI. No excuse for that. Poor Palpatine must be getting senile. Oh well, it was quite a ride until then!

That's a compelling theory. As for ROTJ, Palpatine was obviously too distracted by the prospect of getting a new apprentice to pay enough attention to the military situation, which is why is plan goes off the rails….

-Will

I like to take into account the fact that the heroes of Star Wars (luke, han, leia, etc.) were heroic. They are akin to Aragorn and Legolas. They are like D&D or Warhammer heroes with fantastic stats. They enjoyed accuracy, endurance, and survived all their save rolls (that's why stormtroopers couldn't hit them).

It's interesting that the Emperor said "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" but he never saw the Ewoks doing what they did now did he?

Stormtroopers aren't like Clone Troopers because the Clone Troopers could hit what they were aiming at but the Stormtroopers couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

*snort*

On the point of how quickly an effective army can be built: in the U.S. In 1941 the Army was severely undermanned, under trained, under equipped, and under supplied. Within a year they were moving effectively against Japan, and in less than three were defeating the German war machine in North Africa. In four years they were marching across Europe against the vaunted Nazi military might. Not alone, of course, but in less than half a decade the U.S. Army became possibly the most powerful military presence on the planet. So the Imperial forces' elite status in twenty years is entirely plausible. (And if you can accept FTL spacecraft, droids, blasters, lightsabers, and The Force, you can certainly accept that.)
As for Rebel victories, asymmetric warfare isn't based on winning every time, it's based on winning just enough to pull off key strategic actions and prolonging things enough to establish de facto victory simply by being impossible to defeat. See the AWI, Vietnam, etc.. That the Rebels were handed the Silver Bullet of killing Palpatine was pure luck on their part; the Emperor built the perfect trap, and then stupidly sat inside the bait.

Parzival, your analysis is excellent. Just before WW2. the US army was smaller than Romania's army.

The second Death Star had to be started around the same time as the first, because in Revenge of the Sith we saw the plans and that was 20 years before Star Wars. I can't believe they sat on the plans for ten years before starting work and yet in short order they get well under way building a bigger and better Death Star soon after the destruction of the first…. or we could be reading toooo much into the films, 'cos it's not real… it's not like I have a set of stormtrooper armour or a Vader costume, in the attic…. actually I do ;D

Very good threads boys!!
Congrats!!

Amicalement
Armand

Here's the thing with Stormtroopers: we see them in action directly against Luke, Leia, and their associates. Anakin/Vader was supposed to bring balance to the force. Which he did, through his children. Thus, I believe the force itself protected them directly. Leia was suddenly away from Alderran when it got popped. Han was able to find Luke in a blizzard. The stormtroopers and other Empire troops had no chance to ever effectively attack them. And in re Endor? A lot of ewoks died to achieve that victory. And ewoks were no pushovers. They had a full war plan ready to go, organized, tactical, with equipment ready to go. Who were they planning on fighting? And did anyone notice they were very quick to decide on eating captives? The evidence points one way: ewoks were in violent tribes who fought each other to the death and ate their fallen foes. Cannibal warrior teddy bears.

When teddy bears can defeat you with sticks and stones, you've got a problem.

They don't even fare well against Rebel Alliance troopers…

link

It seems that the Empire underestimated the power of the Ewoks.

Like the Monty Python "Killer Rabbits" one should only underestimate the vaunted Ewoks at his own risk.

I don't think many people give Palpatine the credit he deserves. He was VERY clever in his plots and strategies. In Episode I we see that while maintaining a public face as a wise and respected senator, he is secretly supporting a Separatist faction with which he plans to create a great crisis in the Republic. In Episode II, the crisis comes to full bloom and he manipulates the Senate to make him chancellor and grant him power to raise a huge military force (which he was already raising in secret).

Nope, it's all nonsense. He created the Separatist Faction and then started the civil war fought by Droids (which are manufactured and controlled by the programmer) to fight the Clone Army he also had created (which are manufactured and controlled by the programmer) in secret.

Since the Republic had no standing military, either the Droid Army or the Clone army alone would have been sufficient for a Coup de Main to seize total power.

And why create an army of cloned humans instead of a Sith army? Since the series established that your Force Power is determined by the amount of "Midichlorian" bacteria in your bloodstream, just clone a bunch of super Sith force masters with a super high cloned Midichlorian count that are programmed to totally obey their one and only Sith Lord.

So Palpatine's plans were overly complex and redundant, and it was only the utter incompetence of the Jedi that allowed him to win. It's hard to say who was more stupid, the Jedi Council with all their super-dooper force sensitivity who can't sense a super Sith dude at the same dinner table, or Palpatine who manufactured an overly complex situation when he could have much more easily grabbed total power.

Palatine is Channeling Dr. Evil when he should have been more like Scott:

YouTube link

If Palpatine was channeling Scott then might we have seen him doing the skipping part like Scott did in the movie?

Re: Sith, there are only ever two. Maybe it's a Force thing?

I have always seen the original star Wars movies as rebel propaganda movies.

Nope, it's all nonsense. He created the Separatist Faction and then started the civil war fought by Droids (which are manufactured and controlled by the programmer) to fight the Clone Army he also had created (which are manufactured and controlled by the programmer) in secret.

Since the Republic had no standing military, either the Droid Army or the Clone army alone would have been sufficient for a Coup de Main to seize total power.

Its a bit convoluted I will admit, but the point of the war was to draw the Jedi into a conflict to blind them to a Sith Lords rise to power and to whittle their numbers down.

The Sith had tried the direct approach a few times in the EU.

And why create an army of cloned humans instead of a Sith army? Since the series established that your Force Power is determined by the amount of "Midichlorian" bacteria in your bloodstream, just clone a bunch of super Sith force masters with a super high cloned Midichlorian count that are programmed to totally obey their one and only Sith Lord.

Lots of Sith Lords apparently means weaker Sith according to the EU, Darth Bane created the Rule of Two (Master and apprentice) because less wielders of the dark side equals more powerful Sith and the Sith's attempt to fight the Jedi head on had failed repeatedly.

The Jedi created their version of the Rule of Two at the same time in an attempt to control their numbers and prevent another Jedi turning to dark side and reforming the Sith.

Since the Republic had no standing military, either the Droid Army or the Clone army alone would have been sufficient for a Coup de Main to seize total power.

Maybe.

The point here is he didn't have to 'seize total power'.

The people handed it to him on a silver platter.

Then of course the Empire basically flubbed the blockade of Hoth in TESB, so even without being distracted by giant monuments to the stupidity of man they aren't firing on all cylinders.

My understanding of the EU is that Admiral Ozzel was a political appointee with wealthy family, and those connections (combined with the best and brightest dying on the first Death Star) resulted in his gaining command of Vader's fleet instead of being relegated to a remote backwater. Plus Captain Piet was manipulating Ozzel towards defeat in order to gain promotion.

"So Palpatine's plans were overly complex and redundant…"

Japan in WW2 from start to finish.

Its a bit convoluted I will admit, but the point of the war was to draw the Jedi into a conflict to blind them to a Sith Lords rise to power and to whittle their numbers down.

The Jedi *met* with a Sith Lord almost every day and didn't know it! Mr. "Hmmm, the force is strong with him" 700yo Jedi Master Yoda was like, "Dude, really, Palpatine's a Sith Lord?" at the reveal. So he didn't need to blind them, they already were. As for "whittling" their numbers down, he didn't do that. After creating a Droid army he totally controlled he then made them fight a Clone army he totally controlled to create "chaos" that resulted in a "vote" in the Senate to give him the power *he already had* he did the "Order 66" thing and the Clones blew the Jedi to bits. Huh?

Lots of Sith Lords apparently means weaker Sith according to the EU, Darth Bane created the Rule of Two (Master and apprentice) because less wielders of the dark side equals more powerful Sith and the Sith's attempt to fight the Jedi head on had failed repeatedly.

Dunno about that, in KOTR you have countless Sith zooming around doing a pretty good job kicking Jedi butt. With the Jedi Order reduced in numbers by the time of Phantom Menace that Clone Army could have been a weak Sith Army and wiped the Jedi out even more quickly. Since most of the Jedi in the movie apparently spend their day in conference meetings and walking about their Jedi Campus having chit chats, not hard to smack 'em. Heck, you could just drive a Republic Cruiser into it at high speed and BLAMM! no more Jedi Temple…

The point here is he didn't have to 'seize total power'.

The people handed it to him on a silver platter.

But unlike Hitler, who didn't have total power until he was voted in as Chancellor, Palatine already had that power! He didn't need to create the crisis that resulted in the vote he got since he already controlled all the actual reigns of power.

And why would anyone in the Republic have been discomforted or panicked enough to make that vote? All the combat except for the 3rd movie when the Palpatine made his move, occurred on backwater worlds with few actual citizen casualties.

Naboo was a backwater planet with little appreciable trade or industry, just frog dudes under water and a vacation city with waterfalls, and despite the Trade Federation's decision to attack said backwater low value planet (if you're called the Trade Federation wouldn't you, I dunno, Trade?), the only people at risk were a few rubes and robots. And when the Clone War started that meant that actual citizens didn't feel the war. Nobody's sons or daughters, husbands or wives went to war. Just a bunch of Clones nobody had ever really seen or met fighting a bunch of robots nobody had ever seen or met on nowhere worlds like Geonosis.

So I like to pretend that the first three movies didn't happen…so many horrible plot points and inconsistencies…

And when the Clone War started that meant that actual citizens didn't feel the war.

That isn't true, in the movies and in the EU. Fighting occurred everywhere, and Palpatine was given absolute power because his Separatists were attacking core worlds like Alderaan and Coruscant. The third movie opened after the initial attack on Coruscant. Millions died during that fight, both through collateral damage and the result of destroyed space ships crashing into civilian housing. And the droid land forces were deliberately slaughtering civilians as diversions.

The Jedi *met* with a Sith Lord almost every day and didn't know it! Mr. "Hmmm, the force is strong with him" 700yo Jedi Master Yoda was like, "Dude, really, Palpatine's a Sith Lord?" at the reveal. So he didn't need to blind them, they already were.

Dark side powers….which Palpatine {being the single Sith Lord) was amazingly strong in. The Sith had a thousand years of practice at hiding themselves from the Jedi.

As for "whittling" their numbers down, he didn't do that.

I think its well established that the Jedi numbers dwindled during the clone wars, even before order 66 was used to kill off the scattered and vulnerable survivors (aside from those that escaped into hiding). The Jedi Order was by design limited in the number of new Jedi they could recruit and train and was unable to keep up with wartime losses.

After creating a Droid army he totally controlled he then made them fight a Clone army he totally controlled to create "chaos" that resulted in a "vote" in the Senate to give him the power *he already had* he did the "Order 66" thing and the Clones blew the Jedi to bits. Huh?

The chancellorship of the senate was a powerless position before Palpatine and he needed a threat to the security of the Republic to justify his own rise to actual power and the creation of a massive military almost from scratch.

The Sith had fought several wars with the Republic, which they generally started well and then ended up being exterminated, only for a jedi to turn to the dark side and start the cycle over again a new plan of attack was needed.

Dunno about that, in KOTR you have countless Sith zooming around doing a pretty good job kicking Jedi butt. With the Jedi Order reduced in numbers by the time of Phantom Menace that Clone Army could have been a weak Sith Army and wiped the Jedi out even more quickly. Since most of the Jedi in the movie apparently spend their day in conference meetings and walking about their Jedi Campus having chit chats, not hard to smack 'em. Heck, you could just drive a Republic Cruiser into it at high speed and BLAMM! no more Jedi Temple…

There are numerous examples in the EU of the Jedi and Sith existing in great numbers, but after the last great war all but unpopulated the galaxy, the Sith went with the Rule of Two and the Jedi reformed the Republic virtually disbanding the Republic military, reformed the Republic politically and reformed the Jedi Order to limit Jedi numbers to hopefully prevent the rise of another Sith Lord from their ranks.

The whole Rule of Two thing is established lore (unless Disney decides to change it of course) designed to hide the fact that the Sith still exist from the Jedi and to concentrate that power.

Sith are generally more powerful one on one than Jedi, but are hamstrung by the inability to co-operate long term, they literally have to betray each other to remain strong…..which is why the army of Sith idea had been tried multiple times only to fail.

I'm not sure you could have a brain washed clone Sith army, since you need the mental abilities and will to use force powers and to be Sith they would have to be backstabbing each other at every opportunity…..also I think cloned Jedi at least tend to be insane.

Palpatine was given absolute power because his Separatists were attacking core worlds like Alderaan and Coruscant. The third movie opened after the initial attack on Coruscant

Yes, in the Third Movie, as I said. But the first two movies didn't involve *any* core worlds, and he was voted with total powers in the second movie -- but since only Naboo and the rogue world of Geonosis had seen any combat, and then between disposable droids and disposable clones, why was everybody so panicked?

Anyways, I hope the new movie does the original trilogy credit and redeems Star Wars from the horrid Episodes 1-3 movies.

But unlike Hitler, who didn't have total power until he was voted in as Chancellor, Palatine already had that power! He didn't need to create the crisis that resulted in the vote he got since he already controlled all the actual reigns of power.

The Chancellorship was a figurehead position when Palpatine took over, he need a galactic threat to jusitify his gathering of real power both political and military. He need a threat that the Jedi could be distracted by.

And why would anyone in the Republic have been discomforted or panicked enough to make that vote? All the combat except for the 3rd movie when the Palpatine made his move, occurred on backwater worlds with few actual citizen casualties.

Naboo was a backwater planet with little appreciable trade or industry, just frog dudes under water and a vacation city with waterfalls, and despite the Trade Federation's decision to attack said backwater low value planet (if you're called the Trade Federation wouldn't you, I dunno, Trade?), the only people at risk were a few rubes and robots. And when the Clone War started that meant that actual citizens didn't feel the war. Nobody's sons or daughters, husbands or wives went to war. Just a bunch of Clones nobody had ever really seen or met fighting a bunch of robots nobody had ever seen or met on nowhere worlds like Geonosis.

So I like to pretend that the first three movies didn't happen…so many horrible plot points and inconsistencies…

I think you are ignoring the history of the Republic which prior to the last thousand years was full of galaxy wide conflicts, civil wars and genocidial campaigns of terror.

The Republic population was panicked by the threat of a return to the bad old days and piled power on Palpatine who was telling them he could make all the problems go away.

I thought Ep 1-3 were pretty average movies, not as bad as some people believe but not up to the standard of Ep 4-6.

Yes, in the Third Movie, as I said. But the first two movies didn't involve *any* core worlds, and he was voted with total powers in the second movie -- but since only Naboo and the rogue world of Geonosis had seen any combat, and then between disposable droids and disposable clones, why was everybody so panicked?

The battle on Geonosis was the Fort Sumter of Star Wars. The republic was desperately pretending that the CIS didn't exist (as if the US Senate pretended that the absent Southern senators were just on a lengthy bathroom break). Geonosis was the final proof that the Trade Federation was illegally producing billions of war droids on factory worlds, and it forced them to admit there was indeed a civil war occurring. Alderaan and some other planets had strong militaries, and some had fleets, but most would not be able to withstand billions of droids. And the capitol planet was incredibly vulnerable to invasion (one of the CIS's goals).

The Chancellorship was a figurehead position when Palpatine took over, he need a galactic threat to jusitify his gathering of real power both political and military. He need a threat that the Jedi could be distracted by.

Except that he'd already gathered the military power he used to take control *before* he created the galactic threat. I mean, he created *both sides* of the fight and created and controlled *both* armies!

I think you are ignoring the history of the Republic which prior to the last thousand years was full of galaxy wide conflicts, civil wars and genocidial campaigns of terror.

Yes, I am, because all that back story was created after the release of the movies in order to make sense of the things Lucas did. In the movies nobody really expresses much panic, there's no talk by the Senators or anything about widespread war…just floating around in their hover pods chatting each other up or walking serenely through the CGI halls of power. The Republic itself had no military to speak of until Palpatine created the Clone Army. Recall the Jedi and all saying, "Oh noes, the Droid army threat, where oh where do we get an army to fight it?"

"Say, just so happens I have one on order already, boy aren't we lucky!," says Palpatine.

Geonosis was the final proof that the Trade Federation was illegally producing billions of war droids on factory worlds, and it forced them to admit there was indeed a civil war occurring.

Again, to my point -- Palpatine created and controlled all the droid armies AND all the clone armies. So why didn't he just use one or BOTH of those to take over? It's like if Hitler controlled both the German Army and the French Army and then made them fight in order to have the Wiemar Republic feel panicked grant him total power…which he already had by controlling two powerful armies! How much sense does that make?

So why didn't he just use one or BOTH of those to take over?

Because while he was cunning, he was also egotistical. He wanted the republic to beg for his absolute rule, and he wanted them to thank him for the boot heel on their necks.

Because while he was cunning, he was also egotistical. He wanted the republic to beg for his absolute rule, and he wanted them to thank him for the boot heel on their necks.

Now you're making sense!

Yes, I am, because all that back story was created after the release of the movies in order to make sense of the things Lucas did.

Well not really most of the bloody history of the Republic era in the EU existed before the release of Ep 1-3, the story that was created was also due to the need to fit in to the existing Canon…..which at least in the case of the EU that continued the Star Wars story, is largely going to be ignored by Disney.

In spirit I agree with SBminisguy, though I haven't thought through the level of detail he has. I was thinking the other day though that Ep.1-3 was like reading about the Thirty Years War, there's a 300 page introduction to explain what Europe was like in the 16th and 17th centuries and how that caused the war, before you can even get to any fighting.

I would have preferred Ep.1-3 to be the "galaxy wide conflicts, civil wars and genocidal campaigns of terror". For my own gaming, I've ignored the movies and re-written what I think the life and times of Anakin Skywalker were about, based on what we know from Ep. 4-6, some common sense, and the Heirs to the Empire stuff. Just bullet-points though, I haven't written Star Wars and Peace.

boy wundyr x, totally agree; The Clone Wars always sounded like a far more epic conflict than we actually got on screen.

-Will

Will you have to realize that you can only show so much in the movie a lot of what I know about the Clone Wars I read.

The cartoon series covered the Clone Wars well. Loads of combat. Plus you finally understand WHY Anakin was a hero instead of a whiny punk like in the movies.

I always thought it would have been great if Dooku when explaining things to a captured Obi-wan on Genosis as telling the truth. The CIS were actually the good guys trying to stop the Sith control of the Republic.