Tango01 | 22 Apr 2015 9:46 p.m. PST |
"As NATO continues to beef up its presence in Eastern Europe, France has deployed a squad of Leclerc battle tanks into Poland for training exercises. It's the latest example of the West accusing Russia of military aggression while it, in fact, takes steps toward establishing a stronger NATO. On Monday, 15 Leclerc main battle tanks (MBTs) left France en route for Poland. Part of the 12ème Régiment de Cuirassiers, France has also deployed a platoon from the 16ème Bataillon de Chasseurs which includes four infantry fighting vehicles, and a platoon from the 13ème Régiment du Génie. Only in service since 1992, the Leclerc's aren't exactly battle-hardened. Seeing minimal action in Kosovo and Lebanon, the tanks have never been used directly in a high-intensity conflict…" Full article here link Talking about a "what if", in a "face to face" encounter with Russian tanks, which chances do you give them? Amicalement Armand |
emckinney | 22 Apr 2015 11:17 p.m. PST |
Is Sputnik International an official news source of the Russian government? Is it just me, or does "It's the latest example of the West accusing Russia of military aggression while it, in fact, takes steps toward establishing a stronger NATO." sound like something you would write if you were ordered to write anti-NATO propaganda, but you actually wanted to undercut Russia's position? |
Jemima Fawr | 23 Apr 2015 2:01 a.m. PST |
Yes, Sputnik was set up late last year as yet another propaganda arm of the Russian Government. |
GeoffQRF | 23 Apr 2015 2:06 a.m. PST |
Does any one make a Leclerc in 15mm ?? Working on it :-) TMP link |
paulgenna | 23 Apr 2015 6:38 a.m. PST |
Isn't 15 tanks a company and not a platoon? |
Augustus | 23 Apr 2015 6:51 a.m. PST |
I guess this time around, the French are going to preempt actions in East Europe. |
paulgenna | 23 Apr 2015 7:45 a.m. PST |
You mean they are actually worried that they cannot sit this one out. |
Klebert L Hall | 23 Apr 2015 9:34 a.m. PST |
Yeah, like six tanks. That's scare the pee out of Ivan, for sure. -Kle. |
bruntonboy | 23 Apr 2015 10:25 a.m. PST |
"You mean they are actually worried that they cannot sit this one out" Thought this was about French tanks? Not habitual latecomers… |
Samuel McAdorey | 23 Apr 2015 1:23 p.m. PST |
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Cacique Caribe | 23 Apr 2015 2:46 p.m. PST |
If the Poles get their hands on those tanks, at least they would stand a chance of being put to use. Dan |
paulgenna | 23 Apr 2015 2:49 p.m. PST |
France is not part of NATO and it was always a possibility that they would sit out any attack by the Warsaw Pact. What has changed? |
Cacique Caribe | 23 Apr 2015 2:54 p.m. PST |
Paulgenna: "France is not part of NATO" link
link Paulgenna: "and it was always a possibility that they would sit out any attack by the Warsaw Pact. What has changed?" Hopefully an actual commitment to a mutual defense agreement. Dan |
David in Coffs | 23 Apr 2015 3:00 p.m. PST |
Training exercise doesn't necessarily mean military alliance. The USN and PLAN are currently conducting a joint exercise. |
Londongamer | 23 Apr 2015 3:14 p.m. PST |
"France is not part of NATO" France is part of NATO and has been back in the integrated military command since 2009. |
kiltboy | 23 Apr 2015 3:16 p.m. PST |
DeGaulle withdrew France from the NATO unified command and they have only recently limped back in to parts of the NATO structure of command. They wanted to be treated as equal to the US but the scale isn't there. As far as I am aware their Nuclear deterrant is still independant and they do not sit on a few of the working groups. David |
Cacique Caribe | 23 Apr 2015 3:34 p.m. PST |
"France withdrew from the integrated military command in 1966 to pursue an independent defense system but returned to full participation on 3 April 2009" link Yep. If their own people don't even know, then we don't have to wonder any longer what they'll do when another member nation is attacked. Dan |
Rod I Robertson | 23 Apr 2015 5:55 p.m. PST |
France is just trying to get more room with which to retreat! They call it the "Vistula Plan" and they intend to make a strategic retrograde to the Breton Peninsula. ; ) |
Bangorstu | 24 Apr 2015 3:31 a.m. PST |
I do hope none of those making comments about French tardiness are American… |
Failure16 | 24 Apr 2015 5:00 a.m. PST |
Well, this American has a high degree of respect for the French military (and a healthy love for their military kit, particularly their wheeled AFVs, especially from an aesthetic perspective). They have a good track record in Africa and generally as a post-colonial power. In an effort to return to Tango's original comment, I think that the Leclerc would stack up quite well against Soviet/Russian tanks--though if this match-up actually occurs in Poland, we all have larger issues to contend with. So, I suppose I hope I do *not* see it… |
Legion 4 | 24 Apr 2015 8:58 a.m. PST |
I'd say Viva' le' France' … but don't want to get DH'd for cheerleading … Regardless the French are part of NATO and performed well as Failure16 noted in Africa. And generally performed well, save for one or two incidents in A'stan. Yes, the US military generally has a high degree of respect for the French military. All my experiences in the distant past also reflects this. Training exercise doesn't necessarily mean military alliance. The USN and PLAN are currently conducting a joint exercise.
And this also is very much true … interoperability between militaries is very good training. And produces a better trained soldier on all side. Spec Ops units do this a lot also. I remember seeing a US Green Beret being interviewed after the initial battles in A'stan. He was in what we call a "Dress Greens" uniform. He was wearing not only US Jump Wings. But also on the right side of his jacket he was wearing Russian Jump Wings/insignia. That he had to be awarded for training/jumping with Russian Paras/Spetsnaz, etc. … |
Weasel | 24 Apr 2015 12:32 p.m. PST |
A friend of mine met several French soldiers during the first Gulf War. It'd certainly be news to him if the French were unwilling to fight. He also fondly retells the story of how the French units managed to acquire wine in Kuwait, where alcohol is illegal :) |
Tango01 | 24 Apr 2015 11:26 p.m. PST |
The french can managed with wine in the Sahara desert!! (smile) I have a close relative (S.Mayor in the Legion) who told me! (smile). They performe miracles for wine, food and women. (smile) Amicalement Armand |
Legion 4 | 25 Apr 2015 10:43 a.m. PST |
They performe miracles for wine, food and women. (smile) What soldier doesn't ! Save for the US, UK and Germans who may prefer ! |
Tango01 | 25 Apr 2015 12:38 p.m. PST |
Agree!! But the french (imho) have a "plus"! (smile) Amicalement Armand |
tuscaloosa | 25 Apr 2015 12:49 p.m. PST |
"Yeah, like six tanks. That's scare the pee out of Ivan, for sure." Remember the French answer during the early days of WWI, when the British asked what was the minimumally useful number of British soldiers which Britain could commit to France? And the French answered: "One. And we will ensure he is killed." So it's less about the numbers and more about the commitment. |
Cacique Caribe | 25 Apr 2015 1:09 p.m. PST |
Wow. This has certainly been an eye-opening discussion … I guess my opinion of the French people's actual level of patriotism and determined commitment to engage militarily when necessary in recent times is totally warped. Here in the US and in all my travels I've never met a French citizen on military leave or one that openly admitted to having ever served. Every one I've been in contact with, in college, work and personal travel, has been so vocally against any French involvement in military participation in vital actions. They also expressed such a negative perspective, bordering on shame, of the military bravery of their own past generations (and happened to be so anti-American too, by the way), that I have unfairly pre-judged all other contemporary French men and women as if they shared the same attitudes. I apologize for my premature jump to conclusions, and my insensitive and obviously ignorant comments. And I thank you for making me realize I have yet a lot to learn, and from more official and impartial sources. Thanks, Dan |
Failure16 | 27 Apr 2015 8:40 a.m. PST |
You're a good man, Charlie Brown (or Dan, whatever…heh). One must also remember that conflicts such as WWI severely scarred the French in regards to entering into conflicts unnecessarily; you know, "a whole generation gone" type of thing. That may impact how the average French civilian interacts with others…? Regardless, the French soldier/servicemember appears professional and effective at least from my limited perspective. |
Legion 4 | 27 Apr 2015 10:01 a.m. PST |
I'd agree again Failure16. Too many are taking this thing about the French being poor soldiers too seriously, IMO. |
Weasel | 27 Apr 2015 11:09 a.m. PST |
A nation can be against war and still fight well. In fact, one might argue that this is the best view for a democratic nation. |
Tango01 | 27 Apr 2015 11:12 a.m. PST |
I have french military relatives. They are proud to be french soldiers… like in the Napoleón Era!. BUT… they think with they "old Empire" visión. Fight were the french have colonies or interest. Never follow the yankees! (smile) They are very profesional and effective. And most important of all, they are confident with their hight Rank officers. Amicalement Armand |
Johny Boy | 22 May 2015 11:47 a.m. PST |
French actions recently on Africa have been lessons in how to go in quick, with the right approach and kit, and importantly get the job done well. We the Brits and the US could learn a lot from them. |