"Enough with WWII apologies: Japan PM sees no need..." Topic

… to reinforce remorse.

"Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe has implied Tokyo is not going to reiterate an apology for WWII aggression and war crimes in a special statement marking the 70th anniversary of the end of the war in the Pacific to be issued later this year.

Speaking to Fuji TV on Monday night, Abe mentioned there will be no more apologies to the victims of Japanese aggression during the WWII, as apologies made in the past have already made the point.

On 50th and 60th anniversaries of Japan's defeat in August 1945, Abe's predecessors issued apologies for conduct during the WWII…"
Full article here
link

Oh! Yes… they have to apology!

TMP link

Amicalement
Armand

This raises a couple of questions.

Firstly, how important an apology is. It's easy to say "sorry about that" as an individual and maybe you mean it and maybe you don't.

Apologies on behalf of a nation are, I would say, very much harder to judge. Who 'means' it? The individual that appologises? Some of the people? Probably not all of the people, that's for sure.

The second question is 'how long do you apologise for?' I don't expect the Italian government to apologise for invading my country and enslaving people two millennia ago so… when do we expect folks to stop?

Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that the Japanese government didn't do some awful things 70 to 80 years ago and I'm not saying apologies aren't in order. And I haven't got answers to the questions I've just asked.

Just wondering aloud.

John T

Tiresome man that Abe – difficult to know how to make Japan more cognizant of their collective crimes during the 1930s-40s.

Perhaps every flight into and out of Japan should run a string of war movies and documentaries about the era…

Perhaps all Japanese wanting to get a visa for anywhere should have to spend a day watching similar documentaries and sign a statement accepting them as 'true'.

But alas – the Yen is mightier than the word of those who suffered.

People not born when the war was started and fought have nothing to apologise for. I certainly don't like being held responsible for the actions of my forebears – although in NZ I am on a daily basis.

Yes lets stop apologising and move on – what is the point of it anyway – what does an 'Apology' mean really – sorry we lost … Some of my ancestors were killed by the Japanese and I have worked with veterans who were imprisoned by them – dreadful stuff but I don't see what is gained by making them apologise every couple of years…

I have had it with the touchy-feely censorship of expression on some subjects here. There are some posters with good ideas on this site, but not enough to justify continuing to visit or post.

Have they apologized for the live vivisection, biological weapons testing, rape, murder and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale as they did in China? Or for the blatant massacres of surrendered Australians, Dutch, British, and other Allies? If they did, were they displays of real remorse over the horrors they perpetrated, or just non-apology apologies?

From what I remember the problem is not so much the apology but that the Abe faction wants to say that they did nothing wrong to begin with.

Well no, and until they do, then demands for a full and frank apology will continue.

Most Japanese people have no idea at all of the conduct of the Japanese army throughout Asia; it's kept out of their history books and off their screens.

I just wish Japan would recognize what hey did instead of remaining in a state of denial.

It is pretty bad how little they know about WWII. When I was there I went to a museum in Nagoya showing how life was in the 1910s, the 1920s, the 1930s, the 1950s.

Even the Edo museum in Tokyo just talks about the bombing of Tokyo as being a part of some war.

Still I have to agree that the vast majority of Japanese living today did nothing that they need to apologize for. Their government has been changed and is different to what it was. Their culture has been changed in many ways as well.

"Have they apologized for the live vivisection, biological weapons testing, rape, murder and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale as they did in China? Or for the blatant massacres of surrendered Australians, Dutch, British, and other Allies?"

Most of the Japanese alive today had nothing to do with any of that.

"If they did, were they displays of real remorse over the horrors they perpetrated, or just non-apology apologies?"

How would anyone ever know? How would anyone feel real remorse over something they didn't do?

Indeed. If the Japanese had fully accepted their guilt and paid proper compensation to their victims who remain alive [though fewer each year] then we could perhaps accept that further apologies were moot.

The Japanese mostly fall into two camps – those kept ignorant by appalling educational policies and a lack of public discourse concerning WW2 and those who know full well but don't give a damn and are even quite perversely proud of their war record.

A very very tiny minority know the truth and feel any remorse.

I think the Japanese are not alone in not facing up to their dark pasts – it is actually unusual that Germany more or less has [though there is a good deal of "it was all the nasty SS/Gestapo and not 'us' good Germans who did all that"]

But Japan utterly takes the cake.

When do you stop apologizing? Perhaps when your last victim has passed away.

In my view any apology by the current Japanese government would be an empty and meaningless gesture. There is not a single government official in office in that country today that had any hand in crafting the expansionist policies or carrying out the awful crimes of the '30s and '40s. The vast majority of those who did are either dead or faced justice for their crimes long ago. Apologizing for acts that others committed and that you had no personal hand in makes zero sense.

Likewise wallowing in self-loathing and hand wringing guilt about crimes that you did not commit is not healthy for an individual, nor it is healthy for a nation. You should not forget the past, but at the same time being forced to feel collective shame for the crimes of your ancestors does no one any good at all. The whole "sins of the father" thing is nonsense. For example, as a US citizen, I am fully aware that our own record has not been completely spotless. (the displacement of the natives and chattel slavery being the two biggies) I recognize that past injustices occurred. But I feel no guilt or self-loathing over what occurred decades ago.

Finally, as I have asked in regards to the Germans as well, how many generations have to answer for the crimes of one?

Martin

I recognize that past injustices occurred.

But how many people in Japan realize their fathers' generation committed horrendous crimes against humanity? How many will admit it actually happened?

Agreed that the present generations have nothing to apologise for…….the 'cover it up' attitude and 'denial' of history by giving the war years (37-45) a mere two paragraphs in their school history books is shameful however and begs the question 'why?'

The only thing one can hope for is that the lessons of the past have been learned and never happen again.

"Finally, as I have asked in regards to the Germans as well, how many generations have to answer for the crimes of one?"

Germany has done an outstanding job in coming to terms with its past.

Japan hasn't, as noted above.

It isn't about individuals, it is about collective responsibility, and if anything is a job of government, it is that. Just have the balls to apologise properly, job done. Maybe it is an empty gesture, and it is certainly too late for many people, but it would make my father happy for one.

We tend to argue at cross purposes.

I agree Japanese born since about 1930 can bear no direct responsibility. But they should know what was done by those who were responsible. And they do not have a clue – and this is by design.

Many members of Abe's government have done a good deal to keep the past secret from the younger generations and are now trying to bypass constitutional safeguards to allow them to once more take aggressive military action.

It is sinister, destabilizing and beyond the pail.

Just my opinion; the allies should not have accepted Japan's conditional surrender. Bombing should have continued until casualties were of greater importance than keeping their Emperor.

The other Martin:
>>Germany has done an outstanding job in coming to terms with its past.
Japan hasn't, as noted above.

I would contend that Germany has actually gone too far in the opposite direction of Japan. If my interactions with Germans of the post war generations has been any indication it seems as if the self-loathing of modern Germans is so great that simple patriotism and national pride are widely viewed in a negative light. I don't think that makes for a healthy nation. Others may disagree, and it's certainly a topic for another discussion.

Yes, I agree that Japan has (to our eyes) a troubling tendency to simply sweep the past under the rug to a shocking degree. At this stage it's unlikely that this is going to change. This would make any apology for the crimes of the past even more meaningless…and likely unacceptable for Japan's population as a whole.

Not being all that familiar with the ins and outs of Japanese culture, is simply putting the uncomfortable past in a box and forgetting about it a typical practice? If so, that might go a long way toward explaining this.

Martin

Not being all that familiar with the ins and outs of Japanese culture, is simply putting the uncomfortable past in a box and forgetting about it a typical practice?

Another question to ask, in the current popular culture of Japan, would they find the truth about the horrible past to be uncomfortable?

>>Another question to ask, in the current popular culture of Japan, would they find the truth about the horrible past to be uncomfortable?

Would the current Japanese populace really care? Think about the way the kids of today's generation here in the West view history. By definition, most of us here are history geeks. But we are decidedly the exception. On the whole, it seems that most people seem to have little interest in the past.
Why would it be any different in Japan?

Martin

"It is sinister, destabilizing and beyond the pail." Might want to check your homonyms, unless you're referring to the Bozo's Circus game?

(I saw another one recently: 'that which you sew, also shall you reap.' thought it was funny too)

WRT apologies, in most cultures an individual is not responsible for the misdeeds of their relatives, so should it be with government misdeeds. As the greatest generation dies off so does culpability for war crimes, individually or collectively.
Japan's refusal to face their actions is troubling, but the world has moved on and many of Japan's neighbors have caught up with her in terms of military potential. If she rearmed and tried to cause trouble she'd get slapped down pretty quickly.

WHOOPS. I actually thought it was spelt 'pail' as against pale. You live and learn.

It's too late for an apology to matter to my father, but I'd like one for him. Even though if the Japanese hadn't chased him to the US I wouldn't exist.

When last in Amsterdam I visited the Resistance Museum, which is very well done. They had a small section about life under the Japanese in the Dutch East Indies. It starts with a town mayor and his aides surrendering the town to the Japanese, who promptly beheaded them. It goes on like that.

But we are decidedly the exception

it seems that most people seem to have little interest in the past.

That is completely untrue. Wargaming is an exception. At both my undergrad and graduate schools, the history departments were the largest departments outside of science. It is incorrect to equate wargamers and historians, and it is incorrect to making wargaming status one of the defining qualities of a historian. The extent of knowledge on particular topics in history can vary, especially with military history, but that is expected. The average person on the street wouldn't know the proper trim and coat colors for specific regiments in pre-Napoleonic France, but they do know Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, killed POWs, and were nuked twice.

With that said, the average person will base their understanding of history on what they were taught at an early age. That can create hard-to-remove misconceptions about the past, especially when certain topics are ignored nationwide, or whitewashed to the point of uselessness. Which is why I wonder, since every account I heard of Japanese schools point to their history glossing over World War II.

Given that WW2 finished 70 years ago this year, and that virtually everyone who committed an atrocity or was on the receiving end of one is now dead, and that those who led Japan at that time are long dead, I have to wonder who should be apologising, to whom and for what?

Large parts of the West seem to have become somewhat obsessed with apologising for events which happened a long time ago and for which nobody now alive had any responsibility.

Large parts of the West

And China too.

Doug Redshirt said – "The only thing one can hope for is that the lessons of the past have been learned and never happen again"

The first step in learning the lessons of the past is to admit them, but instead the Japanese are still largely in denial.

Rebelyell2006,

I think that we may be at cross purposes; I was referring to our apparent need to constantly apologise, not to require others to do so.

I think, possibly the Japanese feel that after being Nuc'd … twice … they don't have to apologise for anything ? Of course, if the average Japanese is anything like your average American. They really have little knowledge, appreciation, etc., of history … I could be wrong.

I was referring to our apparent need to constantly apologise

I wouldn't necessarily say we constantly apologize, as much as we openly acknowledge our screw-ups and openly admit that (1) our ancestors were not perfect and (2) we are where we are now because of our imperfect ancestors. Is it unreasonable to ask that the Japanese do the same?

Is it unreasonable to ask that the Japanese do the same?

Using American/Western reason, probably not, but culture, 7+ decades, and an educational system and political environment that minimize the history seem like pretty substantial hurdles to any such meaningful acknowledgement today.

That said, you can always ask.

Most Japanese people have no idea at all of the conduct of the Japanese army throughout Asia; it's kept out of their history books and off their screens.

And that's the problem.

In fairness it is not just the Japanese who are guilty of ignoring or whitewashing their past. The US are pretty guilty of this too. Treatment of the indigenous peoples, slavery, the war with Mexico [maybe more than one], Vietnam, Cambodia, South/Central America, Iran – the US have plenty to fess up to and apologize/compensate for but they won't.

I don't doubt it's the same for the UK – but being British we only learn the good bits of our history. France too, Belgium, Spain in South America, Portugal, Holland in Indonesia…all guilty too.

It is not just the Japanese who have a selective view of history. But it would be easier for everyone if they just shut up about it rather than constantly making a thing of not apologizing again or making offensive statements about comfort women having been paid sex workers or all the allied POWs dying because the diet of rice did not agree with them.

And it is only a minority of Japanese who are trying to push the agenda. The rest are largely ignorant of WW2 and though perhaps they ought to take steps to inform themselves this is not so easily done.

Given that Japanese governments have apologised on many occasions since 1945, why do they need to do so again?

….. Just speculating here, but the concept of "face" in Japanese culture is both fundamental and quite powerful. Standing up in a worldwide public forum and making abject apologies for anything would represent to the individual doing so a tremendous loss of "face".

B

I had a great uncle who was captured by the Japanese in Malaya and returned from the ordeal a broken man – unable to ever work again and died very young.

However, I am not sure what these 'apologies' really achieve. Perhaps Japan is a special case, as what they did in WW2 was horrific, and there does seem to have been a desire to sweep it under the carpet. But on the otherhand, I cringe when I see British politicians or members of the Royal family constantly apologising for things which happened about a hundred years ago, which were not in anyway unusual for the time, and which I feel absolutely no shame over, or have any desire to apologise about.

"he US are pretty guilty of this too. Treatment of the indigenous peoples, slavery, the war with Mexico [maybe more than one], Vietnam, Cambodia, South/Central America, Iran –"

Are you kidding? If anything the US has over apologized for many of these things.

If you look at how the treatment of native Americans is taught in public schools you certainly don't see a good side in any of the Europeans actions. Especially at the elementary school level.

Slavery and the Vietnam War aren't glossed over either.

If anything slavery has become the focus of too much US "apologia."

We British took over the slave trade from Africa to South America after the WSS, that was part of the South Seas Company.

Should we apologize for that? I don't think so. I didn't do it. I've never held shares in the South Seas Company. No one I've ever voted for has propped them up or supported them in anyway.

Same with the Americans. No American alive today has ever legally held slaves in the United States. How do you apologize for something you didn't do?

It would be great if Japan would acknowledge WWII, basically, at all. But they don't. Do we want to suffer the effects of bad trade with them to make them? I don't see why we would. Virtually no one in charge in Japan today did those bad things. Most of those that did are probably dead or near to death.

Just my opinion; the allies should not have accepted Japan's conditional surrender. Bombing should have continued until casualties were of greater importance than keeping their Emperor.

It would of also killed a lot more people including the allies. In my opinion, the Americans did the right choice.

"he US are pretty guilty of this too. Treatment of the indigenous peoples, slavery, the war with Mexico [maybe more than one], Vietnam, Cambodia, South/Central America, Iran –"

Are you kidding? If anything the US has over apologized for many of these things.

If you look at how the treatment of native Americans is taught in public schools you certainly don't see a good side in any of the Europeans actions. Especially at the elementary school level.

Slavery and the Vietnam War aren't glossed over either.

If anything slavery has become the focus of too much US "apologia."

Totally agree … and generally this is a very good thing. However, like many situations, some spin things to fit their own concepts, beliefs, etc. … Regardless, history is history … what happened … happened. Good, bad or otherwise.

Same with the Americans. No American alive today has ever legally held slaves in the United States. How do you apologize for something you didn't do?

Very true, some Americans today were upset to find their ancestors in the AWI, ACW, etc., were slave owners, etc. … Yes, that is distressing to some/many. But since we can't go back in time and "fix" the past. We have to accept that is part of history, regardless …

Pictors Studio,

Despite what you state in your post, the Japanese have acknowledged their role in WW2 and have apologised many times, both in general and to individual nations.

Just my opinion; the allies should not have accepted Japan's conditional surrender. Bombing should have continued until casualties were of greater importance than keeping their Emperor.

It would of also killed a lot more people including the allies. In my opinion, the Americans did the right choice.

Most historians agree, the Japanese, every man, women and child if possible would have fought to the death. Had the Allies landed on the Japanese Mainland. As horrible as it seems. The math in this situation shows that many more lives, Japanese, Allied, etc., were saved because of the A-bombs being dropped. It's tragic and horrific but it's a hard fact of histroy. Which I'll admit not everyone agrees. Estimates that the Allies, mostly US, would have taken over 1 million casualities in the conquest of the Japanese Mainland. Based on the fighting on islands like Iwo, Okinawa, etc., the US had no choice but to drop the A-bombs. If for no other reason than it saved Allied lives, let alone the Japanese. Tragic, horrific, horrendous, however you want to say it … but it is history. It is what happened …

"Despite what you state in your post, the Japanese have acknowledged their role in WW2 and have apologised many times, both in general and to individual nations."

I guess there are two ways to acknowledge WWII. One would be to have the government make some sort of statement. They have done this.

There is another way, which would be to teach their population about.

This they do not do. Basically at all. A 20 something living in Japan likely knows nothing at all about WWII except that Americans dropped two atomic bombs on them for almost no reason.

So, London Gamer, they have not really acknowledged their role in WWII, whatever the government may have said publicly.

I do not think this means that the current government needs to apologize for the behaviour of the government during WWII. They had nothing to do with it.

Pictors Studio,

You might need to insert the words "In my opinion" before "they have not really acknowledged their role in WWII, whatever the government may have said publicly."

Your post is actually somewhat illogical. Firstly, you state that the Japanese have acknowledged WW2 by making a statement; then you state that they have not really acknowledged it. You cannot have it both ways.

"A 20 something living in Japan likely knows nothing at all about WWII except that Americans dropped two atomic bombs on them for almost no reason." That statement, with minor tweaks to put it in national context, would apply to most 20 somethings in most countries involved in WW2.

'"A 20 something living in Japan likely knows nothing at all about WWII except that Americans dropped two atomic bombs on them for almost no reason." That statement, with minor tweaks to put it in national context, would apply to most 20 somethings in most countries involved in WW2.'
Not to interfere with your discussion, but there's a difference between someone who doesn't know because he's daydreaming about a date during history class and someone who doesn't know because the school doesn't teach the information.

Was living in Japan during the late 90s. Apart from a minutes silence each year to mark the dropping of the Atomic bombs I saw very little acknowledgement of WWII. When the movie a "Thin Red line" came out one of the Japanese teachers I was working with said she was going to see it. "Oh good", I replied, "I'd be interested to see what you think". She came back the next Monday horrified/surprised that Japan was fighting the US!

When I mentioned to colleague I was going for a holiday on Guam and Saipan they asked if it was:
a) to fire guns
b) to play golf

They were very surprised it was to visit battlefields of WWII.

Here in NZ I taught ESOL to adult learners for several years and often had to tread carefully. More often than not Japanese students were oblivious to their nations history during WWII whereas my Chinese and Korean students were always very politically aware and would take great offence at the lack of knowledge of their past most Japanese had in our class discussions when topics such as WWII were discussed- always an interesting debate but I had to tread carefully over this very sensitive topic.

Germany and Japan's approach to their past are like night and day, one has confronted it the other tries to pretend it didn't happen.

Still it will be interesting to see if Greece can make Germany cough up cash for its past again :)

Craig

Very interesting and informative Craig. Thank you for posting !