matthewgreen | 14 Apr 2015 9:11 a.m. PST |
The picture is taken from an old Osprey of something sitting in the Musée de lArmée. It's described as "French howitzer, Gribeauval system", but in those days nearly everything French was described as Gribeauval. It looks nothing like the piece usually described as a Gribeauval howitzer (e.g. in Chartrand's Osprey). The barrel is more symmetrical and the carriage is different. And it certainly isn't one of the later 5.5in howitzers. Could it be the bigger French "6in" howitzer based on the Prussian 10pdr? |
Jcfrog | 14 Apr 2015 11:11 a.m. PST |
Most of those guns outside are not labelled or mis labelled. Could be An XI? |
Unlucky General | 14 Apr 2015 12:52 p.m. PST |
Don't discount that the museum staff may have reconstructed it incorrectly – barrel on an incorrect carriage. |
wrgmr1 | 14 Apr 2015 1:24 p.m. PST |
The carriage is Prussian. French barrel on a Prussian carriage? |
matthewgreen | 14 Apr 2015 3:19 p.m. PST |
Barrel looks a bit Prussian too. Could have been captured and used by French. |
matthewgreen | 14 Apr 2015 3:20 p.m. PST |
An xi has turned up train ends and a longer proportioned barrel. |
wrgmr1 | 14 Apr 2015 8:00 p.m. PST |
Calpe Prussian 10lb Howitzer. Barrel is different, but the carriage is the same. [URL=http://s219.photobucket.com/user/tjm3/media/Calpe%20Prussians/IMG_0713.jpg.html]
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matthewgreen | 15 Apr 2015 4:17 a.m. PST |
Different but not all that far off. The French version of the 10pdr wasn't identical apparently – and there may have been different Prussian versions anyway. Suspect that the Prussian 10pdr is what this piece is. Whether it is the French "copy" I wouldn't like to say though. More likely to be captured and perhaps re-barrelled. In my usual scale of 15/18mm I would be doing well to get a resemblance that close! |
Brechtel198 | 16 Apr 2015 6:39 p.m. PST |
I've been looking through the technical drawings that I have from various sources on this howitzer, and the gun tube is very similar to a Gribeauval 6-inch howitzer, but I'm not sure. I've also seen similarities with the Gribeauval howitzer carriage, especially the elevating screw, but again, I'm not sure yet. I'll keep looking and keep the forum posted. |
summerfield | 17 Apr 2015 11:06 p.m. PST |
Dear All It is a Bavarian Rumford M1791 7-pdr Howitzer. See pg84 of the plan in Dawson, Dawson and Summerfield (2007) Napoleonic Artillery. Rumford was a loyalist American and heavily influenced by British designs hence the vertical elevating screw and parallel cheeks. Probably close to the current RA howitzer design if Congreve. Stephen |
Brechtel198 | 18 Apr 2015 4:38 a.m. PST |
That's very possible. The gun carriage certainly isn't Prussian as it doesn't match what's in the Prussian artillery manual. The trail brackets are parallel here. And the howitzer itself is not Prussian either as it doesn't match those in the manual. And the Gribeauval influence is clearly visible from the shape of the end of the gun trails to the method of mounting the handspikes. |
matthewgreen | 18 Apr 2015 10:48 a.m. PST |
Thanks gentlemen. Your help is appreciated |
matthewgreen | 18 Apr 2015 12:05 p.m. PST |
Taking a look at the diagram in DDS I can certainly see the resemblance. But it doesn't look quite the same. The barrel projects out a bit more from the front of the carriage, and there are details that are different on the carriage. This may amount to the same thing, as I suspect the trunnions are slightly further forward. I'm not expert at viewing these things, but the barrel does look to be of the same proportions though. |
deadhead | 18 Apr 2015 12:30 p.m. PST |
What impresses me here…is the expertise in these responses. A barrel on a a pair of wheels, in any museum, is very evocative to me. I have huge respect for those who can then distinguish a Year An 15.5 from a Premier Restauration Feb 1815 As an outsider, I have seen little French stubby guns (Howitzers) and longer barreled ones (they fire on a flat trajectory) in museums, whether Paris, Brussels, Kremlin or Tower of London. But I could never make any sense of the mouldings on the barrels, as they seemed totally inconsistent. I will leave that to the experts.There are folk who can tell you that a thing like a dustbin on a split train carriage, with turned up ends, is actually a hybrid Prussian/French museum compromise……. God bless them. Without the discussion we see here, we will never move on. Also, within a few decades there will be no one to comment with any primary sources. Maybe it does not matter? I'll admit it does to me. If a certain gun had a bore of so many mms, I need to know for sure now, plus for the next two thousand years……..one day some kid might want to know for sure…….. |
matthewgreen | 19 Apr 2015 6:41 a.m. PST |
Yes deadhead it's awesome. There was nothing like this expertise when I entered the hobby in the 1970s. Unfortunately for those of us who use 15/18mm most ranges of miniatures were put together when high levels of ignorance prevailed. So trying to get the things to look right for the small number who care is an uphill battle. This is especially true of French howitzers. My next project is to put together a series of models that approximate to a relatively complete set of French weaponry. I now have a rough idea of how I'm going to achieve that – though I don't yet have a clear picture of the heavy howitzer (10pdr,/6.8in). I was hoping this might be it, but that hope is fading fast! |
Brechtel198 | 19 Apr 2015 11:49 a.m. PST |
Have you tried to get the original or copies of the original technical drawings? They are available in different publications as well as on the internet. I received as a gift for Christmas either original or excellent copies of four large format technical drawings of French artillery of the Gribeauval System from either Diderot's Encyclopedia or (unlikely) Gribeauval's Tables of Construction. They are excellent and have obviously been torn out of a publication. It was a lucky find. |
Brechtel198 | 20 Apr 2015 5:20 a.m. PST |
My next project is to put together a series of models that approximate to a relatively complete set of French weaponry. I now have a rough idea of how I'm going to achieve that – though I don't yet have a clear picture of the heavy howitzer (10pdr,/6.8in). I was hoping this might be it, but that hope is fading fast! I have copies of the technical drawings from Fave's study of artillery of the 8-inch howitzer, among other pieces, and I have Fave's Volume 5 coming in which has some AN XI drawings as well as Bavarian period pieces. If you are interested in scans of these, which should help you in your project, I'd be happy to send them to you. My home email is Boulart198@yahoo.com Fave's publications' title is/are: Etudes Sur Le Passé Et L'avenir De L'artillerie. There are at least six volumes in the series and the technical drawings are excellent. |
matthewgreen | 20 Apr 2015 9:49 a.m. PST |
Many thanks. I am not sure that what you have coincides with the aims of my project – but I will email you anyway! |