"A-10 and Helo Gunship Support?" Topic

So, working on a bit of Cold War gaming, and scenario generation, and would like to know how much, if any support can be called on by commanders in the front lines, from either CAS aircraft, and/or helo gunships, for the following periods:

1970s;

1980s;

and, Post-Cold War – Ultramodern (1990+)?

I realize there may be differences too, in availability, for General Support, and Direct Support.

For the Cold War period, I'm thinking West Germany, with American/NATO units on the defensive, during the opening hours/days of the conflict.

Units on the front lines I'm looking at fielding are: US Armored Cav Troops/Squadrons, US Armored Division Companies, and perhaps a US Marine LVTP unit (Company level, with a Tank Platoon, or two of support).

Not sure how much the two former units would have in direct, and/or general support, given the scenario of a Soviet/Warpac attack.

For the US Marines, from what I've seen of their landing exercises down in San Diego, it appears they may have Cobras and Super Cobras right overhead, from the get go.

I imagine, as things progress, and technology has improved, ground commanders have a lot better ability to call in helo gunship support, as well as A-10s and other aircraft, when needed.

So, can anyone provide some general info on the numbers of aircraft and helos available to troops at the sharp end, in the above scenarios, and also their general response times to requests for support, in terms of minutes, and/or hours?

I also imagine, for offensive ops, dedicated CAS and attack helo missions would be pre-planned, and known before the kickoff of those, by the ground commanders.

Does that sound reasonable?

70's: Cobra and F-4
80's: Cobra, Apache, F-15E and A-10
90's: Apache and A-10

Fulda Day One, you might see some Apaches, but the A-10s are doing Deep Battle (as are most of the Apaches). Depending how that goes and the recovery rate of the A-10s maybe by Day 3-5. What CAS you might get may not even be US.

Long time ago I ran a Combined Arms (Command Decision) game that pitted a Soviet Tank Regiment vs a Company of Apaches. LOTS of burning tanks and the Apaches had to leave to re-arm. In those rules AA could not fire if it moved during the turn (All AA is Opportunity Fire). So the Soviet had to hope some AA would cover his advance, then a short halt to get the AA units in a new firing position. You can guess what were Priority Targets…

Like Sabre6 says, the Apaches and most of the US/Allied AF were doing deep attacks. We counted the Apaches as maneuver elements, not CAS, so we didn't expect them in close. Cobras were for massed anti-tank work along the FEBA. We were told to expect 4-12 CAS sorties per day average per battalion, although the division commander would allocate them as he saw fit. Not all of it would be American, although NATO and the ROKs used similar CAS doctrine and techniques. Cross training was common. Air support sorties were a double-edged sword: the more allocated, the deeper in the you-know-what the generals thought you would be. Guess what we thought when we were handed a war plan with 48+ sorties dedicated to the brigade? In the early 80s, we primarily saw F-4s and A-10s, with an occasional reserve A-4 or -7. I called in an F-111 once on an exercise. By the late 80s, we saw F-4 and -15s, but predominately A-10s and F-16s.

The USMC was in a class by itself. First, their air support was organic to the Amphibious Force, so it was not normally subject to being diverted. Second, Marine pilots were rotated to command infantry units, so they knew exactly what their purpose in life was: support the guy in the forward foxhole. When we called the USAF, they came in looking for MiGs first and hitting the target was second priority. When you call the Marines, tie down your antenna or they might take them off. A Marine A7 pilot still holds the record for a CAS mission: 2 meters from the foxhole of the guy calling it in. As an old Army tanker, I will always buy a drink for Medevac and Marine pilots, but the USAF can pound sand (and yes, there is a story behind that).

A10s were around in the late 70s…saw my first one over Fort Hood, TX, during an FTX in 1979.

Air support wasn't handcuffed by nationality by the early 80s. If you called for CAS, you got the closest orbiting aircraft, whomever it actually belonged to. A US ground unit would be just as likely to get West German Alpha Jets or Belgian F-104Gs or Dutch F-16s, etc, etc, as it would be to get US aircraft. It's largely dependent on exactly where in NORTHAG or CENTAG you're looking at.

Thanks for the info, and replies thus far.

48 aircraft for a Brigade sounds wonderful, but of course the enemy will have a say in at least some of those sorties, so I suspect that might be difficult to achieve during WWIII.

I've seen the SuperCobras work over the Southern Cal beaches, on their Marine amphibious landing exercises. They are an impressive sight, and seemed to be flying oval orbiting patterns, or figure eights, only about 40 – 60 feet off of the sand. Usually, in pairs, working together. Watching those LCACs come in to the beaches is impressive too.

I didn't realize the A-10s, and a lot of the Apaches were dedicated to the deeper battle. Does that apply to the US Army Cobras, and SuperCobras too?

I thought perhaps at least some would be allocated to help crush the frontal waves of Soviet/Warpac Armor, as they engage our troops along the front lines.

Also, excellent info on the cross-pollination of the various air units, since I was wondering about that. I thought perhaps at least the US and West German Air Force assets might be allocated to their troops, so that will be more interesting to game.

In the 1970s and 1980s, roughly how long would it take to get a response from helos, or air units, if you're in the front lines, under heavy attack, and need CAS?

Were USAF F-16s used for CAS in the early to mid-1980s?

Sorry. Got hit by the dreaded TMP bug there.

All fixed wing air assets in a given area were theoretically under that area's central air command, ie in BALTAP all air assets, regardless of nationality, were under the command of AIRBALTAP and would be allocated by that command. Obviously, in a highly fluid combat situation, it wasn't all neat and well organized, but the general structure didn't vary.

Army rotary wing aircraft were largely exempt from the above system and again for example, in BALTAP they would've been under LANDJUT or LANDZEALAND command and the command of the various national armies. They were less prone to being lumped into a orbiting pool of aircraft than fixed wing were.

As the Air Force allocated aircraft for missions, it was all based upon availability rates by aircraft. The highest rate was for the A-10 which was planned to fly 4 missions a day. So, if 4 A-10's were allocated to you for CAS, you might be able to plan for 16 actual strikes. But, if you lose an aircraft early, you lose all the other missions it potentially could have flown. In the early to mid 80's aircraft usually seen in the CAS role in VII Corps AO were the A-10, F-4, F-104, Alpha Jet, and the A-7. The F-16 was considered the most accurate by planners and that model of aircraft usually won bombing competitions. However, when the targeting computers were turned off, the F-4 jockeys that learned to use the MK I eyeball in Vietnam were the best at getting ordinance on target. A-7 pilots were also know for getting the job done down low and the F-104 pilots were crazy.
Aircraft like F-111, F-15e, F-16, and Tornado where usually looked to for deep missions for interdiction, airfield denial, or strategic strikes.

Book recommendation – 'Air Battle Central Europe' by Alfred Price. Written in the mid-1980s, it goes through what each part of the NATO air forces were to do. You can get it through US Amazon cheaply.

Dear Blue Shark number eleven,

RAAF assets were requested through the Brigade Air Liason Officer and tasked accordingly. Army Aviation assets were also requested through Brigade HQ. A RAAF UHID gunship would work in pairs. A Winjeel of Pilatus singluarly spotting for a larger asset such as a F111 of a pair of F18s

Regards Allan

The ACRs had organic rotary assets, in 4th squardron. I dont know the numbers, but they where around all the time.

From a worms eye view, if it was organic, you could get it, if it was direct support, you might get it. If it was general support, forget it exists.

Big reason the Army likes artoillery, it is right there with you and some dude you dont know way off somewhere is not the one deciding if you really need and deserve what you have asked for.

Owen

Marine CAS is organic to the MEU, at least the Helos and Harriers. Hornets (or A7s if you're in the 1970s and early 1980s) I'm not sure about, but I'd suspect that they were playing the deeper battlefield.

A Marine A7 pilot still holds the record for a CAS mission: 2 meters from the foxhole of the guy calling it in.

I'm sure the USAF has hit that close before, too.

Oh, wait, you meant that close ON PURPOSE, didn't you?

Tell the story, man!

Sorry, Lion, that story isn't mine. I am sure I still have the report somewhere in a box. And yes, I meant on purpose.

Back the early '80s, when I was a Bn S-3Air in the 101. There was a tactic/technique called a JAAT. Joint Air Attack Team, where A-10s and AH-1s would do coordinated attacks together. This most likely was based on the threat of the Warsaw Pact crossing into West Germany/Western Europe. In massive armor/mech formations. The AH-1s [and eventually the AH-64] would pop-up from cover like trees, a ridge, etc. and engage the enemy AFVs with TOWs at long range. Then go back under cover and possibly move to another position. While this was going on A-10s would swoop down and open up with their ordinance on the remaining Warsaw Pact AFVs. Then the A-10s would pull up. And the Gunships would pop-up again and let loose with TOWs, etc. … This "Yo-Yo" type maneuver would continue until both the A-10s and AH-1s[64s] ran out of ordinance. Then hopefully other flights of both type aircraft would come on station and continue the JAAT. Or enough of the Warsaw Pact AFVs have been significantly been attrited. NATO ground forces would engage, etc., etc. … At least that was the plan way back then …

Cobra and Apache support is going to depend on whose asset it is and what the ground situation looks like.

In the 70s and 80s, attack battalions would be TOW Cobras, AH-1Q, S. and F models. They would be either division or corps level assets so they probably wouldn't be unleashed until the battle situation was developed and the main thrust identified. Probably be used only on the friendly side of the FEBA against breakthroughs. The Air Cav cobras were primarily used to protect the aero scouts fighting the recon – counter recon battle. The ACRs had an Attack Troop of 21 Cobras in three platoons that would be parceled out to each Armor Cav Squadron to supplement the Squadron's anti-tank defenses.
Once the Army of Excellance J series TOE was rolled out beginning in the mid 80s, the dynamic changed. The Corps and Division Apaches battalions were handed the deep battle second echelon fight in conjunction with the A-10s. The Cav roles didn't change although the Regimental Combat Aviation Squadron was pared back to 2 attack troops of 7 Cobras each. In the late 90s the RCAS underwent many changes as the role was debated and the Apaches replaced the Cobras but proved to be unsuitable to the recon battle. The Cav commanders didn't want to give up the firepower of the Apaches but they were eventually replaced by OH-58 Kiowa Warriors by the time of OIF.

Thank you all for excellent information!

In the late 90s the RCAS underwent many changes as the role was debated and the Apaches replaced the Cobras but proved to be unsuitable to the recon battle. The Cav commanders didn't want to give up the firepower of the Apaches but they were eventually replaced by OH-58 Kiowa Warriors by the time of OIF.

And now things have turned full circle, the OH-58 is being retired and replaced with AH64Es…

Great info.

Thanks for sharing all of the details.

So, it does sound like my Armored Cav Troop/Squadron might be able to expect 2 – 6 Cobras for support, if under a major attack.

Perhaps even, some A-10s too, though that may be less likely.

Any idea for response times of the helos and CAS aircraft, in the 1970s, and/or 1980s, in minutes, tens of minutes, hours?

I assume after the Cold War, that it's probably a bit easier, and faster to call in air support, like in the 1st and 2nd Gulf Wars, and/or Iraq, especially given we didn't have to worry much about opposing enemy aerial opposition during those conflicts.

In those cases, I imagine response times would be 5 – 10 minutes maximum, or less, depending upon urgency, and whether defensive, or offensive ops were ongoing. Probably faster if a major attack was going on by American/Allied units, since presumably that would have been coordinated and planned for, before the kickoff of the offensive.

Does that sound reasonable?

5-10 minutes seems pretty short period of time. In Iraq and Afghanistan I thought I heard 20 minutes and sometimes longer.

Yes, great thread, I've printed it out about 3 times as new stuff gets added!

Attack Helo doctrine at that time was to operate in a 3x5 mix; one OH58 and two Cobras in the light team, one OH58 and three Cobras in the heavy team all under the control of the ABC or Air Battle Captain, who did not necessarily wear Captain's bars. They would normally fight from the same battle position although not necessarily side by side or even able to see each other. Each crew would choose their own firing positions within the BP and never unmask and fire more than once from the same FP. Cobras at that time usually carried 8 TOW missiles so assuming all went well, one attack unit could decimate a tank battalion.

Whe supporting a ground maneuver battalion or squadron, attack helos would be integrated into the defensive fire plan and would rarely be used for targets of opportunity. The ground unit would identify 2-3 primary and alternate kill zones in their AO. The attack units would pick out battle positions to engage each kill zone from the flanks ideally 2500m or more out to max TOW range. The ABC would determine response time from each holding area to each battle position and work with the ground CO to coordinate routes in and out, supporting fires and triggering events on the execution matrix to know when to bring the attack helos from 5 minute standby Redcon 3 to Redcon 1, ready to move. The holding areas would be no more than 20 km away although they could be as close as 10 depending on terrain and weather. The ground CO would have his scouts ID the enemy main effort, maintain contact and alert him in time to get the attack units into position so the CAS, arty and Cobras simultaneously engaged the enemy. Once the Cobras have expended their ammo, unless there was another 3x5 mix dedicated to that ground unit, it would be at least 2 hours before they could re-arm, refuel and get back in the fight.

Unless you have an S3 air to coordinate all of this, for gaming purposes I would assume that the attack helos won't be in their battle positions until the supported unit has already stripped away the Combat Security Patrol, Forward Security Element and the main body is entering the kill zone with supporting fires targeting ADA assets.
Attack helos don't like a fair fight so stealth, ambush and stand-off are the keys to victory.
You can even up the odds by randomizing events such as the holding areas or battle positions being compromised by enemy recon or CAS, or as happened to us in GW1, the loggy toads badly coordinated the movement of the Forward Arming and Refuel Points, and when the ground Cav needed us we were 100 kms away armed to the teeth and out of gas!

70's: Cobra and F-4
80's: Cobra, Apache, F-15E and A-10
90's: Apache and A-10

The F-4's would be around until the 90's. We were the first operational unit of F15E's at Seymour Johnson NC and we only had 1 operational squadron ready when the First Gulf war started (the build up in August of 90, a second joined just before the shooting started)

Until then we deployed for "Crested Cap", the air portion of "Reforager" with good old F-4Es

Unless you have an S3 air to coordinate all of this, for gaming purposes I would assume that the attack helos won't be in their battle positions until the supported unit has already stripped away the Combat Security Patrol, Forward Security Element and the main body is entering the kill zone with supporting fires targeting ADA assets.

Yes, a number of things have to occur. If your AHs are going to fight the deep battle or even deploy to a lightly defended area. SEADS – Suppression of Enemy Air Defense Systems have to occur along any air route beyond the FEBA/MLR. SEADS can be accomplished by FA, CAS even Naval Gunfire. Also, Fast Movers fly strike packages usually lead by Wild Weasel type aircraft to target and destroy enemy ADA/AAA. In Vietnam these were sometimes called "Iron Hand" missions. So in a JAAT type or any intergrated gunship/fast mover op, the S3 Air, FA/FDC, TACP/FAC/ALO and even ANGLICO have to coordinate SEADS, Strike Packages, and JAAT missions, etc. to be effective. Which is all part of the Air-Land Battle Doctrine and Combined Arms concept. And if done properly all these assets [FA, Gunships, Fast Movers, etc.]. Can be a deadly for the enemy. I was fortunate while an S3 Air to have been sent to USAF Air Ground Ops School and Naval/USMC Basic Amph Training. Which really helped teach me the bigger picture. And understanding the effctiveness of evolving the Air-Land Battle/Combine Arms concepts.

Attack helos don't like a fair fight so stealth, ambush and stand-off are the keys to victory.

Exactly, AHs flying NOE or Contour pop-in up from behind cover and engaging enemy armor at long range. Can be deadly and the AHs could be under cover before the enemy can respone effectively. FA, Naval Gunfire and even Iron Hand/CAS could suppress any ADA in the enemy columns. Not to mention the trouble all that firepower could do. Even before the AHs and A-10s/JAAT even has it's turn. Again, the US/NATO had to come up with tactics, techniques, doctrine, etc., to defeat the massive armor/mech threat of the Warsaw Pact heading West.

Cobra and Apache support is going to depend on whose asset it is and what the ground situation looks like.

Yes, for example, in the 101, we had IIRC 2 Attack [AH] Bns plus an Air Cav Bn organic to our TO&E. And in all operations, almost everything is based/dependent on the terrain and the tactical situation.

Attack helicopters have basically taken over the WW2-era Tank Destroyer mission and tactics. It took a while before the TDs were truly fast enough to make the tactics work right.

Now, they're fast enough to see and strike and escape.

That is pretty much true. The the AH proved it's effectiveness against the lightly armed VC and the NVA forces who deployed limited armor/mech units in SE Asia. And again, the Warsaw Pact threat of deploying huge numbers of armor/mech forces in Western Europe. Certainly was the thought behind of mounting TOWs [and later Hellfires]on AHs. Turning them into "new" TDs …