"AP round for JagdPanzer Kanone?" Topic

Did the West German Jagdpanzer Kanone use AP ammunition?

I see that the Rheinmetall 90/L40 gun was supposedly rifled (some say it's a cut down 90mm gun from the surplus M47 tanks), so I was wondering if they carried armor piercing rounds, in addition to their HEAT, HESH, and HE ammo.

Seems to me that would be reasonable, but perhaps they switched to the more capable, and expensive HEAT rounds, due to the need to combat rapidly improving Soviet armor.

If so, anyone have any performance stats for the 90mm gun?

All I've found on-line is a 300mm RHA pen rating for the HEAT round, and a listed effective range of 2,000 meters.

I understood that rather than mess about with the gun they removed it and replaced it with an ATGW, HOT I think,

Tally Ho!

The gun of the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4–5 was a Rheinmetall L/40,4, the main types of ammunition being HEAT and HESH, plus HE, smoke and illumination.
Barrel length: 4,91m
Weight of shell: 5,74kg HEAT and 7,45kg HESH
Muzzle velocity: 1145m/s HEAT and 795m/s HESH
Maximum effective range: 2000m
300mm RHA penetration HEAT
Ammunition load: 51

link

And in 15mm we can now offer you the Kanone, HOT and TOW versions :-)

Nick,

The Raketenjagdpanzer 2 (SS-11 ATGM carrier) was developed alongside the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 and mainly served in mixed gun/missile AT companies with them until the 1980s. These were all converted to Jaguar 1 (HOT ATGM) in the late 70s/early 80s.

About 150 or so Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 were converted to Jaguar 2 (TOW 2 ATGM) in the mid-1980s. More Kanonenjagdpanzers were converted to become OP vehicles for the 120mm mortar companies. The Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 was mainly relegated to reservist units at this point, with regular brigade AT companies becoming all-missile.

As Kanonenjagdpanzers wore out, a few units replaced them with M48A2GA2 medium tanks.

So while quite a lot of them were converted to ATGM carriers and they disappeared from regular Bundeswehr service, the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 still stayed in service in relatively large numbers until 1990. They were never fully replaced/converted before the end of the Cold War.

…Hmmm, I do need to add the SS-11 variant…

Yes. :)

Raketenjagdpanzer 1 was very similar, though was based on the HS-30 Schuetzenpanzer-Lang chassis. They disappeared during the 70s.

Raketenjagdpanzer 1

Raketenjagdpanzer 2

Thank you for the replies, gentlemen. I really appreciate them.

That is good news, Geoff. Love those little Jagdpanzers.

Would like to see a RktnJgdPZ 1 AND 2, with SS-11.

Also, a HS-30 with 120mm and/or 81mm Mortar would be nice too.

Any pics of your HS-30 model floating around?

Note – I think that RktnJgdPz 1 shown above is really a Mk. 2, since the bogies look too big, like the one shown below. The HS-30 bogies are a little smaller.

That's an excellent idea by Mako – the HS-30 SPz-Lang 120mm mortar carrier is about the only model left to add to your West German range after the Raketenjagdpanzers (aside from the M48A2GA2 medium tank and trucks/jeeps).

Oh and engineering kit – M48 bridgelayer, Biber bridgelayer and Pionierpanzer Dachs.

Thanks, Jemima.

I suspect, it, and/or the HS-30 could also be used as the "latest, in state of the art anti-armor weaponry", if a 106mm recoilless rifle armed variant is made available too.

We need one of the latter for every four of the HS-30 IFV models, in each platoon of five.

Oh, and don't forget the M114, for the American armored cav units, on the front lines of the West German frontier.

Ah yes. That's an easy one for Geoff & Chas to do – just stick an M40 Recoilless Rifle in the pack. Job done. :)

the hs30 and jpz kanone do look very similar and some book do get them mixed up!
I was surprised when I built mine how close they are

It is a big problem when working on these things, that very often both internet and printed sources have vehicles mislabelled!

Yes, you are correct Geoff, the mislabeling does add a lot to the confusion.

I had always only seen the later, Marder-style hull, until just recently.

I never realized the earlier one had the smaller bogies, and smaller hull chassis of the HS-30.

Adding to the confusion are all the different marks, with the various missiles as well, e.g. SS-11, HOT, and finally the Jaguar 2 with TOW launcher.

To provide a bit of clarification for others like me, who may be confused about the various models, see the info below.

Until recently, I was still a bit confused with availability dates too, but think I finally have that sorted out, thanks to Wiki, and other sites. Originally thought the Raketes weren't fielded until 1966/1967 (Wiki says 1967, but I think I've seen 1966 mentioned too – the former could be the start of production, and not the fielded date).

If Wikipedia is correct, the Raketenjagdpanzer 1 (HS-30 hull model), with SS-11 missiles, was fielded in 1961 (not sure the pic of it is correct, since it appears to have the larger, Marder-style bogies, in the photo on the top right. Of course, perhaps the caption is correct, and the model I have of the RktnJgdPz 1 is wrong, since it has smaller bogies, or it might be a prototype variant, and not a production model):

link

Apparently, the Jagdpanzer Kanone variant was fielded in 1965:

link

The Raketenjagdpanzer 2, with SS-11 missiles, on the larger, Marder-style chassis was fielded in 1966/1967 (Wiki says 1967, but I think I've also seen 1966 mentioned too):

link

Jaguar 1 with HOT missiles – fielded in 1978:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_1

Jaguar 2 with TOW missiles – fielded in 1983 (ignore the dates in the column to the right, which is incorrect, and read the text):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_2