"5 Core Platoon Skirmish?" Topic
18 Posts
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War Panda | 31 Mar 2015 6:48 p.m. PST |
I've played Nordic Weasel's 5 Core series (5 Men in Normandy and the Company version…haven't tried the Brigade yet) and I'd really like my next game to use these rules but at a more skirmish squad/platoon level Basically a similar command level to Bolt Action and Chain of Command. While I really enjoy both these systems I think the 5Core offers a much quicker simpler game. I also really to try out the 5core activation system in the Platoon level. I'm wondering has anyone tried lowering the Company Command level to suit a Platoon level game. Perhaps changes to the Kill and Shock Dice results to better reflect the level i.e. Individual casualties, more Suppressive or pinning effects on squads with the maybe NCO involvement with these new morale issues (Squads requiring a rally order by their NCO after receiving Flinch or Bail status…etc… I'd also like to know how the firing effects could be altered to reflect the squad firing with individual casualties. Perhaps keeping the same dice until the squad is reduced to half is and then they lose their kill die? I'm a leader nut :)…I love a game to emphasize the importance of the NCO at this squad/platoon level..so maybe squads within command range of their Platoon Commander could automatically activate on each turn (without effecting the activation ratio) Also interested in views on the 1 – 6 activation roll. I really think this is a great rule but I wonder could a variation of this be used. Again perhaps only squads with NCO's attached can receive the Scurry Order and only teams in range of their NCO will Firefight… I'd love to hear any thoughts especially from the writer Ivan and those who are familiar with the game especially Just Jack who has played these games extensively Thanks |
Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 7:36 p.m. PST |
Something I had talked to Alex about was this: You have 6 teams right? (3 rifle, 3 MG, assuming a ww2 platoon). Roll 3 activation dice. Assign one die to each of three teams. Scurries and Fire Fights allow them to act as normal, a number allows that number of figures in the team to activate. * * * * * When firing, a team gets 1K1S as standard Every 3 figures is +1S Every 4 figures is +1K. Every SMG is +1S Every LMG is +1K2S Assign results throughout the target team. So f.x. a rifle team with 6 soldiers would get 2K3S when firing. If I roll nothing on the Kill Dice but get a 1 and a 6 on two of the Shock dice, one enemy flinches and one bails out. * * * * * Reaction fire happens as it does now but is limited based on the number of enemies in sight. Riflemen only provide 1 S, LMG provide 3S. So if you move a 5 man team past 2 enemy riflemen, they only get 2S in reaction. Does that make any sense at all?
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Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 7:38 p.m. PST |
So if my activation dice are 1, 2, 4 I might assign the 1 to one of my MG teams,so they can Scurry and get in position. I assign a 2 to another MG team, letting 2 of them activate for some covering fire. Finally, I use the 4 on a rifle team, letting 4 of them move up to assault some fascist vipers. A team leader that knows how to read the map gives +1 activation to that team.
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Just Jack | 31 Mar 2015 8:10 p.m. PST |
Oh, you two are killing me! You have the ultimate in beautiful simplicity, and you two want to muck it up! ;) In all seriousness, if you're wanting to go the route it sounds like Panda is wanting to go and Ivan is describing, why not just use Ivan's 'other' rules, No End in Sight? They are every bit as good as the 5Core stuff, certainly more 'crunchy' (which it sounds like Panda is looking for), it's just the 5Core mechanisms are pure treasure for me, so I'm sticking with them. I'll also add that, as Ivan showed above, you can do whatever you want with the 5Core system, and it won't break. Give it your best shot, it just won't happen. You may slow it down severely, but if that gives you the level of fidelity you're looking for, who cares? So, it will work with whatever you're trying to do. Hell, we were just discussing playing Brigade Commander, except the stands are battalions vice companies, and we came up with a fairly representative logistics system in about 10 minutes. In any case, I have done what you are trying to do, but, of course, I did it in my own simple way. That is, I played 5Core Company Command just like I always do, I simply called the stands fireteams instead of squads. If you want to play 5Core (vice making so many changes that you really just recreate NEIS) at the platoon level, I would suggest a couple test games. Start off doing what I just said: play a whole game (it's only an hour, hour and a half) through with the rules as written, calling the stands teams instead of squads. Make notes on things that don't feel right, then play another game, gradually tweaking stuff (activation dice, firing dice, firing results, don't forget attachments, assets, and random events) until you get exactly what you're looking for. I'm just saying that approach because that will likely keep you in the flavor, focused, and attacking it in small chunks, as opposed to attempting a total re-write right from the get go, which runs the risk of bogging down and losing interest. I mean, if you're looking to re-write the whole thing, maybe this isn't the set of rules for you. But if you find you like them, it will be easy to take only a couple steps off the path to maximize your gaming experience. Let me know if I can help. V/R, Jack |
Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 8:19 p.m. PST |
You could be a radical and go with what Jack suggested :-) One of the reasons I cram all the optional rules in there is exactly what Jack suggests: It's a toolkit and it'll probably do what you want if you put it together in the right manner. |
War Panda | 31 Mar 2015 8:48 p.m. PST |
Thanks Ivan, living up to your rep of been the most helpful game designer; I really appreciate the quick response :) Roll 3 activation dice. Assign one die to each of three teams. Last thing I want to do is over complicate the flow of the game but I'd love to somehow have the leadership quality of a force influence the number of activates. Even an optional rule maybe? Certain exceptional NCO's on a force perhaps allow an additional activation to a unit within command distance? Anyway this might be a house/optional rule I could implement. While I don't think larger levels would need this detail perhaps this more squad focused conflict could benefit from the influence of the NCO? When firing, a team gets 1K1S as standard Every 3 figures is +1S Every 4 figures is +1K.Every SMG is +1S Every LMG is +1K2S Great…this was exactly what I was looking for :) Scurries and Fire Fights allow them to act as normal, a number allows that number of figures in the team to activate. So if my activation dice are 1, 2, 4 I might assign the 1 to one of my MG teams,so they can Scurry and get in position.I assign a 2 to another MG team, letting 2 of them activate for some covering fire. Finally, I use the 4 on a rifle team, letting 4 of them move up to assault some fascist vipers. So outside of Scurries and Fire Fights and within an ordinary activated squad only a select number of members would activate. I'm wondering would this create a slightly disjointed unit and therefore complicate things unnecessarily? But it does look A team leader that knows how to read the map gives +1 activation to that team. This sounds really good Ivan. I personally think your system could well be most suited to this level and could create an amazingly excellent game… again I really appreciate the info. And I'd love to see an official version…I'd be first in line to get it :) @Just Jack you old codger…we all know you like simple things (ahem) and I like simplicity myself but I think I'd enjoy a little more detail. But it's a good idea to try it out as you mention…I'll let you know how I get on :) I mean, if you're looking to re-write the whole thing, maybe this isn't the set of rules for you. Well I certainly won't be interested in doing that ;)….but I really think there's a few real gems in there but I think in a platoon level there should be perhaps more emphasis on certain aspects of the focused unit. Funny to see Jack more defensive of the game than Ivan :) I definitely think its worth play testing to see what might work |
Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 8:57 p.m. PST |
A disjointed unit is a feature, not a bug ;) Do you push now, or do you wait for the guy cowering in a ditch to catch up? As an aside, if you have single based figures and want to try Jack's solution, just push some figures together in a cluster and call them a team. I have a feeling off the top of my head that Company Commander would probably work just fine. Then you can fiddle with Rifle vs MG teams. Are you after single based figures specifically?
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War Panda | 31 Mar 2015 9:06 p.m. PST |
Are you after single based figures specifically? Yeah I'd prefer single based. Basically using the same stuff I'd use with CoC or BA A disjointed unit is a feature, not a bug ;) Do you push now, or do you wait for the guy cowering in a ditch to catch up? I agree. But should there be something to differentiate between various levels of troop quality. Surly an elite squad with expert training and experience should have a better chance of acting as a cohesive unit than a bunch of farmers with pitch forks (unless the elite were Danes and the farmers Irish :) |
Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 9:11 p.m. PST |
In CC, see the "Seasoned Professionals" rule on page 22 :) I don't know why I put it there and not in the Troop Quality chapter. Imperialist sabotage no doubt. The general FiveCore answer to "are they better?" is they get to activate an extra element in standard turns. Nice and simple and it compounds over the course of multiple turns. (If you have the skirmish rules, you can also give them more skills. More fun but also more to keep track of. In company commander, give them some more specialists) edit: I tested a rule once or twice for commando raids or ambushes where the superior side gets to roll 2 activation dice and pick either one. I felt it was a bit too good but it might be worth a shot too. |
War Panda | 31 Mar 2015 9:18 p.m. PST |
edit: I tested a rule once or twice for commando raids or ambushes where the superior side gets to roll 2 activation dice and pick either one. I felt it was a bit too good but it might be worth a shot too. That sounds like a nifty idea Ivan. And I totally understand what Jack is talking about. Theres absolutely no point in adding detail that will end up destroying the simplicity and flow of such an elegant system. At the same time I think certain clean adjustments or modifications should be tried. |
Weasel | 31 Mar 2015 9:22 p.m. PST |
Jack's a bit of an anarchist that way :-) I do think his point is well taken. Start out closer to "rules as written", note what did and didn't do it, then tweak those parts and work towards the end result. A formal "platoon-core" could happen but since NEIS covers it already, it's probably a bit less likely (if I wasn't neckdeep in space marines right now anyways :) ) |
War Panda | 31 Mar 2015 9:34 p.m. PST |
Jack's a bit of an anarchist that way :-) …and that's the nicest thing I could call him ;) |
War Panda | 01 Apr 2015 4:05 a.m. PST |
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parrskool | 01 Apr 2015 6:54 a.m. PST |
Hmmm… Are these rule available in hard copy in the uk or must I download a PDF ? Ta |
War Panda | 01 Apr 2015 7:33 a.m. PST |
As far as I know they're just PDF. Hopefully Ivan can set that straight |
Weasel | 01 Apr 2015 8:25 a.m. PST |
At the moment, only PDF, sorry. In the future that may change. |
Just Jack | 01 Apr 2015 8:18 p.m. PST |
If you three are done tickling each other on the internet, how 'bout we get back to talking about rules! ;) Sorry, I was out of pocket writing up my 10,000 word batrep for the latest dogfighting game. V/R, Jack |
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