"Gallic / Celtic Chariot / Cavalry mix" Topic
12 Posts
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yarkshire gamer | 30 Mar 2015 11:41 a.m. PST |
Hi all, After a bit of advice from you Ancients players out there, its not my first love in terms of a period more of a side project, I try to play historically based scenarios rather than points as a reference point. I am building a Gallic contingent for my Carthaginian army but also want to use them as a stand alone, so here are my questions, 1. When did the chariot go out of use in mainland europe. 2. Did the Republican Roman armies face a warband / chariot army 3. Was there a crossover period when chariots and cavalry were used 4. What types of Cavalry were in use Heavies, Lights or both and what were their tactics. Any help gratefully accepted. Regards, Ken yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk |
getback | 30 Mar 2015 12:46 p.m. PST |
Polybius has republican Romans fighting Gauls with chariots and cavalry at Telamon in 225 BC. So slap bang in between the first and second Punic wars. No idea if light or heavy. I am using British style light chariots in my generic Gallic army (makes up part of my Carthaginians, without the chariots). |
Mars Ultor | 30 Mar 2015 12:54 p.m. PST |
Hi, Ken 1. I have read that the last known use of chariots in mainland Europe was the Battle of Telamon, 225 BC 2. The Roman Republic was the opponent in that very battle. They had other battles against Gauls of Norther Italy before and after. See also Battles of Sentinum, Arretium, Lake Vadimo, Faeulae. Seems like ROmans lost about half of these. 3. They had both cav and chariots at that battle and probably also at others. 4. As to heavy or lighter, given the complete lack or uniformity, I'd say probably a combination of mounted warriors who had armor and those with only shield and helmet, but I'm no Celtic expert. If they're mercenaries they're more likely to have armor. |
williamb | 30 Mar 2015 8:16 p.m. PST |
For what it is worth, the Field of Glory army book "Rise of Rome" allows chariots up to 100 BC. It also has the following restrictions: before 250 BC chariot bases must equal or exceed cavalry bases. after cavalry bases must equal or exceed chariot bases. Cavalry are not allowd before 300 BC. Commanders are not included for either and all chariots are classed as light chariots regardless as to the armor of the crew. FOG classes the cavalry as unarmored with shield or armored with shield. The unarmored are mandatory the armored are optional and the required unarmored are almost equal to the maximum allowed for armored. Warriors could be close order or more open depending on the type of terrain their tribe inhabited. Also a few light archers and slingers. if you choose to make them Galatians you can also used scythed chariots. |
GurKhan | 31 Mar 2015 7:06 a.m. PST |
The Italian Gauls at Telamon in 225 is the last definite mention of Gallic chariots. Polybios says that the Gallic army there had "20,000 cavalry and chariots". It is probably relevant that there is apparently no mention of chariots among the Gauls in the Hannibalic War a few years later, nor in later Roman wars in Italian Gaul. There is, however, a Roman coin dating to 118 BC that shows a Gallic chariot – link fifth one down – which _might_ indicate that chariots hung on north of the Alps for another century or so. |
Mars Ultor | 31 Mar 2015 11:06 a.m. PST |
Which all means, as it does so often in wargaming,…you've gotten as close to history as you possibly can – and unless you're going to play a specific historical battle, build the army to suit yourself!! |
Mars Ultor | 31 Mar 2015 11:08 a.m. PST |
Except don't use the chariots in Hannibal's army! |
yarkshire gamer | 31 Mar 2015 12:36 p.m. PST |
Cheers everyone, Last time I looked at this, pre internet it was either Chariots or Cavalry, not a mix so thats good information to have. Cheers for the Battle prompts, I'll do some research on those. Just really the Cavalry to sort out, I'm thinking the richer, higher status dudes and their retinue would be reasonably well armoured whilst the poorer people who could ride would be less so. The question is whether you would have one unit with all types in or a heavy unit with nobles and a seperate light unit. Heavy unit, all out charge, light unit skirmish with javelins ? Any thoughts, Regards, Ken yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk |
JezEger | 31 Mar 2015 12:55 p.m. PST |
Think Gallic mentality. Nobles would have got stuck in for glory, the lighter cavalry would have been skirmishers. Most references I've seen to chariots was that they were more of a troop transport/status symbol. The nobles rode up to the battle in them then dismounted to fight. Don't confuse them with the Egyptian mobile archery platforms. |
GurKhan | 01 Apr 2015 3:54 a.m. PST |
As far as I can see there is no evidence that heavier or higher-status horsemen would be separated out into different "units", and none for two different types of cavalry tactics. In fact I think it might be better to envisage something more like a mediaeval "lance" with each mailed nobleman having one or more mounted retainers trotting along behind him – Pausanias' description of the Galatian "trimarkisia" suggests something of the sort. Therefore you'd get a "unit" with better-armoured front ranks. |
Oh Bugger | 01 Apr 2015 6:39 a.m. PST |
True enough and if you think about it the better armed lads are the leadership so separating out the followers would deprive them of leaders. Also I'd suggest that the followers were likely from the same social class and more than likely extended family as the leaders. I doubt the Gauls used their chariots any different from the Britons so a bit more than battle taxis there. |
John the Selucid | 01 Apr 2015 7:33 a.m. PST |
The Gauls of Europe last documented use seems to be at Telemon in 225BC. Hannibal didn't seem to use any Gallic chariots but his Gallic cavalry were brigaded with his other "bridled cavalry" as opposed to the light Numidian cavalry. Whether all the Gallic cavalry wore armour is not clear but I think it is reasonable to treat all of them as closer formation cavalry than the light cavalry, in wrg 7th parlance they would all be heavy, if armoured, or medium if unarmoured. While the hairy fringe is not the area I know most about, my Gallic army is allowed cavalry and chariots in the lists I use, which I believe to be fairly historically accurate, but if any chariots are present the cavalry can not exceed the chariots in terms of number of elements. The Galations of Asia minor seem to have retained the chariots for a longer time and even used some scythed chariots on one occasion, and of course the chariot was still in use in Briton when Caeser invaded. |
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