"Somewhere Over the Bekaa Valley, 1982" Topic
17 Posts
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Just Jack | 25 Mar 2015 5:04 p.m. PST |
All, Well, I was able to get a second modern playtest of the new aerial combat rules in this weekend, and it was fun once again. This time we've got Israeli F-16s up against Syrian MiG-23s, but it's more than that: the Israeli pilots are aces, but their are only two of them, while the Syrians are rookies, and there are four of them. Even so, I was a little worried about the numbers advantage, so I started the Israelis off on their board edge, in a trailing position, on the Syrian flight's rear left quarter, and I gave the Israelis the advantages of altitude and the fact they had already 'spotted' the Syrians, who would go first each turn, but would have to roll to spot the Israelis. It turned out the spotting issue wasn't much of an advantage, as the Syrians got in a lucky roll early on and were able to quickly to turn into their attackers.
The Syrians get into position and get off the first shot.
But the Israelis got the first score, with the Syrian pilot ejecting. The fight was fun, but still took an hour and fifteen minutes… I was real nervous about the numbers difference, and, to tell you the truth, I wouldn't run a 'real' game 2 vs 4. I could see doing 3 vs 6, 4 vs 6 or 8, etc…, but 2 vs 4 leaves you too susceptible to one wacky roll (which isn't unrealistic, it's just not very much fun as a game). The rules 'feel' right to me; there's nothing strange about them (to me), there's no weird result (so far). I'll say the rules aren't the coolest thing ever, and there's nothing all that sexy about them, but they are giving a fast and fun game that feels (to me) like a dramatized dogfight. For the whole fight, please check the blog at: link V/R, Jack |
Just Jack | 26 Mar 2015 8:07 a.m. PST |
Nothing? No one? I feel so alone… On a serious note, of anyone that read this, how was it? Did it sound reasonable, or, more importantly, was there anything blatantly wrong? Any issues, things that could be better? V/R, Jack |
War Panda | 27 Mar 2015 1:01 p.m. PST |
Hi Jack. First of all. Planes are not flavour of the month with the Dillon's. We're ins bar in Pearson Toronto having missed our connection to Edmonton👹. I'm done with Airports and planes for quite some time so I find your AAR s bit of a personal insult 😣 Seriously though I'm finding these very entertaining. Id like to try them out sometime but as you know I only play sexy so that might be a problem 🐽 I think you mentioned that you haven't tried any of the template type flight games but I had a blast with a pal a couple of years ago with several. They use the XWing type mechanic so they can also give great solo play games Talk to you soon when I'm back home |
Rod I Robertson | 27 Mar 2015 5:31 p.m. PST |
Just Jack: Another very interesting report and (I hate to admit it) pictures which make the narrative far more understandable! I still don't understand what effect on these games your rules have because I cannot glean from your descriptions how the rules work. However, you seem to be enjoying them so that's all that matters I guess. Also, I still can't figure out why the Israeli's didn't blast the Syrian Migs from the air with long-range radar guided missiles rather than risking life and limb by closing to use heat-seekers, etc. No doubt the Israelis felt they had to bend to G-d's will! Deus Vult! War Panda: Trapped in Toronto! Could there be a crueler fate? Trapped in Mogadishu, perhaps. So, Pandas can't fly, eh? Pity. Welcome back! Cheers and good gaming. Rod Robertson. |
War Panda | 28 Mar 2015 8:30 a.m. PST |
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Rod I Robertson | 28 Mar 2015 9:22 a.m. PST |
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Just Jack | 28 Mar 2015 5:24 p.m. PST |
Sorry, just saw the replies. Panda – Hope you get home safe and sound, and these rules are sexy enough, even for you. I love the selfie on the plane ;) Rod – I responded over on our usual hangout, but I'll re-post here: Pictures really are, as Kyote would say, ‘the bee's knees,' or ‘the cat's meow.' ;) "I still don't understand what effect on these games your rules have because I cannot glean from your descriptions how the rules work." I suppose it is kind of difficult to ‘show' in the batreps. If you're familiar with the 5Core series, the activation roll is the same, simply modified for air vice land combat. The combat mechanism of using kill and shock dice is the same as well, simply modified for air vice land combat. Maneuvering is very simple: a given aircraft has a number of activation points it can use, and it takes activation points to move forward, then more activation points to move up or turn, and less to dive (in a nutshell). If you're familiar with the ‘tailing' concept from Bag The Hun, this is in there also. I have yet to start messing with random events. "However, you seem to be enjoying them so that's all that matters I guess." Amen, brother. A few more games and the rules will be opened for playtesters (if you're interested). "I still can't figure out why the Israeli's didn't blast the Syrian Migs from the air with long-range radar guided missiles rather than risking life and limb by closing to use heat-seekers, etc." Well, it had to do with the geographically tiny battlespace and very restrictive rules of engagement (I'm talking about the real life war in Lebanon in 1982). As a matter of fact, Israeli F-15s and F-16s scored 51 of their 55 kills with Sidewinders. In any case, BVR radar kills make for poor tabletop games ;) Thanks for taking a look. V/R, Jack |
Mako11 | 29 Mar 2015 3:23 p.m. PST |
Yea, I suspect part of that is not wanting to trust the radar guidance on the missiles, when I/R ones are so much more reliable. Also, I suspect the Israelis didn't/wouldn't want to turn on their radars to give away the game, when they can be vectored in unnoticed, by their AWACS, and/or GCI radar, while the Syrian radios are jammed, so they can't give warning. Without that, or RWR warnings in the Syrian jets, it's really not a fair fight, as events in the Middle East have shown. |
Rod I Robertson | 29 Mar 2015 4:28 p.m. PST |
Boy, do I have a lot to learn. |
Just Jack | 30 Mar 2015 4:51 p.m. PST |
A huge piece of this was also: 1. The size of the battlespace. The Israelis didn't want to expand the war and wanted to keep the fighting in (over) Lebanon, which helped to keep engagements at short range. and 2. The rules of engagement were pretty strict. Aside from worrying about friendly fire in a densely packed battlespace, there was also concern over expanding the war by shooting down another nation's military aircraft, and the concern to not shoot down civilian aircraft. So AIM-9L (all aspect, but short range) Sidewinders were the order of the day. V/R, Jack |
Fatman | 31 Mar 2015 7:23 a.m. PST |
Mako11 By 1982 the AIM& was just as reliable as the AIM9 so I think your second suggestion is probably more to the point. Why risk alerting the enemy that you are there when AWACs can bring you right in on their tail were you can gun, or Fox 2, them down before they can see you. Rod I Robertson Can I suggest going to this site acig.info/CMS and joining the forum. A great source of information about all aspects of air warfare since the end off WW II. One word of warning like all websites, TMP included, it has its share of troll; haters and s: However, again like TMP, the vast majority of posters are really helpful. Just Jack While the majority of kills were by IRM, they were a mix of AIM 9L and Python III by the way, I have seen lists crediting a few AIM 7; gun and even three "manoeuver" kills. However it is true that whenever possible the Israeli tried for a zero emissions heat seeker kill. If you are looking for playtesters I would be happy to volunteer. I am a dedicated Airhead and must admit your AAR's have piqued my interest. I also have a number of regular opponents who enjoy air games so would be able to give them a reasonable test flight. As a parting thought I would imagine that if you were one of the SyAF MiG 21 jocks who fell victim to a "manoeuver" kill that it would be a small mercy that you probably didn't survive. At least that way you didn't have to explain how you let your highly agile fighter get so out manoeuvered by a hulking great F-15 that you hit the ground. ;-) Fatman |
Rod I Robertson | 31 Mar 2015 5:15 p.m. PST |
Fatman: Thanks for the reference. I visited the sight and will begin my proper education this weekend. The green text on black background may leave me blind soon!: ) Rod Robertson. |
Fatman | 31 Mar 2015 5:58 p.m. PST |
Yeah it is a bit off putting. ;-) At least the posts on the forum are a nice easy to read white on black. Fatman |
Just Jack | 31 Mar 2015 8:16 p.m. PST |
Fatman, I'm glad you've become interested, and I'd love to have you as a playtester. As a 'dedicated airhead,' please understand these are no simulation; it's fast, furious, and fun, without (hopefully) denying the laws of nature and aerial combat. I've got a couple more games to get in (still need to get the last fight written up, too), but then it will be time to get it out to playtesters. So stay tuned, and we can get into more detail in a couple weeks. V/R, Jack |
Fatman | 01 Apr 2015 3:35 a.m. PST |
Just Jack I am just as happy playing a fast and furious type game as I am playing a complex tech heavy one. Both have their place and time. I will definitely stay tuned and look forward to your next AAR. Fatman |
Just Jack | 01 Apr 2015 7:52 p.m. PST |
Excellent, Fatman, I really hope you like the rules. I'm about to hang the newest batrep. It's really long, but I give a few insights into the rules. V/R, Jack |
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