briansommers | 24 Mar 2015 9:20 a.m. PST |
I'm looking for a skirmish game. Imagine dicing for movement for individual soldiers in a squad. then you modify that roll for squad leader and his leadership rating and the individual soldier skill, weight – how much they are carrying and fatigue. I'm thinking like you start with 1d10 or ?? then move up and down die ranks. so if you have a leader nearby then you move to a d12 if you are carrying a lot then down to a d10 again, etc etc. this could even be used to fire as well. ?? anything like that or do I need to invent my own game? |
warhawkwind | 24 Mar 2015 9:29 a.m. PST |
Would color coding the dice help keep things straight? Red D6 for over-burdened, yellow D8 for fatigued, Green D10 for ok. Add a blue D?? for the commander's presence, etc… I like the idea of varied movement. Keeps ya guessing. Cheers. |
Stryderg | 24 Mar 2015 9:32 a.m. PST |
Seems overly complicated for my tastes…good thing different people make different games. I think Dirtside and Stargrunt used the die shifting mechanic for firing, but not movement. No reason it wouldn't work, but you might also shift for terrain (muddy vs dry ground, undergrowth, etc). I've got a feeling that too many modifiers would drop everyone down to a 1d4 movement, though. What scale are you looking at? |
JezEger | 24 Mar 2015 9:35 a.m. PST |
You might consider dice volatility as well. Having an officer nearby should stabilise things, so maybe 2D6 rather than 1D12? It would give a more predictable result. Irregular or green troops might have the D12 option to give a more erratic result of suicidal bravery or running away. |
elsyrsyn | 24 Mar 2015 9:45 a.m. PST |
I like the way the SoB&H games handle this – maximum movement ranges are fixed (short, medium, long), but activated figures get a variable number of actions (1-3), and leader presence influences the result of the activation roll. As for shifting die types, I used to love the idea (partly just because polyhedral dice are fun), but then did a lot of the math and found I didn't like the results. I've come to favor pools of binomial dice instead (the new Pendraken Warband game uses this mechanism, and I'm sure there are others that have as well). Roll nD2 (or flip n coins, or whatever), and count the successes. Positive factors add dice to the pool, negative factors subtract dice from the pool. Nice and simple, with (in my opinion) good probability curves. Doug |
MajorB | 24 Mar 2015 9:52 a.m. PST |
I've come to favor pools of binomial dice instead Would a pool of binomial dice generate a Binomial frequency distribution of results? link |
elsyrsyn | 24 Mar 2015 9:56 a.m. PST |
It would. One of the reasons I like it. Doug |
Mako11 | 24 Mar 2015 11:20 a.m. PST |
Yea, 2D6 is better, since it gives a more normal rate of movement with smaller chance of extremes. |
MajorB | 24 Mar 2015 11:31 a.m. PST |
Yea, 2D6 is better, since it gives a more normal rate of movement with smaller chance of extremes. So does a pool of binomial dice. |
Weasel | 24 Mar 2015 11:34 a.m. PST |
You can also make it "fixed+random". Each soldier moves 1D6+3" or has a base move that is fixed but runs a random distance if you move all out. |
Sundance | 24 Mar 2015 12:10 p.m. PST |
This might work if you only have a squad, but would quickly get out of hand with anything much larger. |
surdu2005 | 24 Mar 2015 12:23 p.m. PST |
In Wellington Rules and Santa Anna Rules movement has a fixed and random component. The better troops have more of their movement fixed and less random. Worse troops have more of their movement random. The max movement distances turn out to be pretty similar, but movement of better troops is more predictable. Also, terrain effects are reflected as "minus" six-sided dice, so that the effect of rough ground is also less predictable. Buck Surdu |
Extra Crispy | 24 Mar 2015 2:40 p.m. PST |
I prefer unpredictable movement rates but not with that many variables. Frankly you're closer to an RPG here. I've never seen a movement system like that. Usualky just base + dice. |
Weasel | 24 Mar 2015 3:34 p.m. PST |
Many of the Toofatlardies games use totally random movement but by squad. If it's a small skirmish, say, a squad or two, I'd be tempted to make it random move by group. So 3 soldiers clustered together roll as one group. |
Weasel | 24 Mar 2015 4:21 p.m. PST |
Tango – nothing at all, unless you dislike polyhedrals for some reason :) I've played with some groups where every single roll was "which dice do I roll now?". Others have no issue at all. |
Extra Crispy | 24 Mar 2015 7:36 p.m. PST |
@Tango: Nothing wrong with it but it depends why you roll d4 or d12. As for me I tend to prefer games that use at most two kinds of dice, even better if just one. Not that I'm a stickler – my SciFi rules assign differetn dice for melee strengths… |
Simo Hayha | 24 Mar 2015 7:47 p.m. PST |
you may want to look at force on force ambush alley. it uses squads but has the same mechanics you are talking about … I think. ambushalleygames.net |
CeruLucifus | 25 Mar 2015 5:32 p.m. PST |
Do a distribution plot of the results from the method you're thinking of then compare it to something simpler, for example move 2D6 with +1 or -1 for different factors. If the results are not significantly different, or if the differences don't add anything to the game play, use the simpler system. |
Wolfhag | 25 Mar 2015 10:21 p.m. PST |
Squads do not move as "individual soldiers". They move as a squad or their fire teams. The guys stick together for obvious reasons. Having an officer nearby does not necessarily make things better and can make things worse by overriding the squad leaders commands unless the officer himself is leading. Officers have their place but do not generally participate in fire and movement or give squad/fire teams orders but they can. That's the squad leaders job. He may tell the squad leader what to do but not individual soldiers. If you are doing urban combat where people are getting split up or a special ops battle that's different. In the heat of combat under fire most moves are going to be pretty short. |
UshCha | 30 Mar 2015 11:14 a.m. PST |
Before you decide on random movement as Wolfhag notes you need to understand why you are randomising the movement. What fault/flaw in the time marching analysis are you trying to fix. Are you sure that is the optimum fix. Excessive random makes for an unrealistic game if you are not very careful. Some moves are very carefully co-ordinated. If you screw them up you will have failed big time. Nobody throws smoke and then waits 5 minutes to move behind it for cover for instance. |
specforc12 | 31 Mar 2015 2:31 a.m. PST |
Using dice for movement is not a good use of dice. Dice are good for things like probability, mostly. Randomness here makes no sense as expounded by several of the more savvy posters above. I will share a system that I'm using for my new game to be published that is an excellent system for skirmish sized games and reflects a usually overlooked factor, fatigue. I'm basing the figures in my game but you can breakdown the movement to individual figures if you want. Here's an excerpt and how it goes: 9.) Men and horses use Movement Tables in the same manner. Terrain type determines the maximum speed (distance) possible. Terrain is the same for opposing men and horses, the only exception being for ski troops. 10.) Endurance refers to the physical state of men or horses. A man may have no more than 15 Endurance Points, and a horse no more than 30, accumulated Endurance Points, no matter how long either have rested. When fatigue reaches 0 the man or horse must remain stationary (Calm) until Endurance accumulates beyond the 0 factor point. Fire Teams are obligated to moving and enduring together, and since are "based" together, act together, except for purposes of firing, or where the rules call for deviating from this standard. Example: A man who currently has an Endurance totaling +3, then, may remain Calm (adds +5), or Run (subtracts –4), or Evade or Crawl (subtracts –5), or Walk (adds +1); but if he Evades, Runs, or Crawls he cannot move during the following turn as fatigue would be –1 or –2 factors. Men & Horses may move at speeds slower than the maximum shown on the Movement Tables, so a man could run or evade 2", for example 11.) Encumbered personnel are listed in the Infantry Rules, detailing the kinds of encumbering weapons. Encumbered personnel Run and Evade at half (1/2) the listed speed. Horse units are not encumbered unless they are pulling a weapon or are heavily loaded pack animals. 12.) Evading is a combination of running, jumping, and dodging, making a target harder to hit. 13.) Infantry loading into or on a vehicle are limited to Walking movement speed. 14.) If a vehicle moves one-half (1/2) of its normal move and halts, units may load or unload, but such units may move at a maximum of one-half (1/2) their normal speed. |
wizbangs | 11 Apr 2015 6:12 a.m. PST |
I'm feeling carpal tunnel in my wrist just thinking of all the dice rolling this will require. |
christot | 11 Apr 2015 10:00 a.m. PST |
Lots of good points. I have only a couple of questions, which are probably applicable to any rule writing. What are you to trying to reflect by utilising random movement? How will using this mechanic impact on the game as a whole? |
zoneofcontrol | 11 Apr 2015 7:25 p.m. PST |
My 2 cents: "What are you to trying to reflect by utilising random movement?" Adds a bit of unknown to the game. Can be used to abstract some variables that could effect movement. Morale, situational awareness/unawareness, caution, etc. It takes some of the 30-foot tall general out of the game. Are my guys going to make it to that stone wall in one move? Is Corporal Klutz going to trip over his two left feet and slow everybody else down? "How will using this mechanic impact on the game as a whole?" It takes some of the exactness out of the game and adds some of the fog of war element in its place. When I drive to work or go to pick up my kids from sports practice, I usually drive the same way each time. However, traffic conditions sometimes result in my trip being longer or sometimes quicker. Maybe I have to wait at a train crossing or detour for construction work. I mostly game solo. A randomness in various game events can add some excitement and newness to a move, turn or even an entire game. It is the equivalent of adding random events to you game but only on a much smaller scale. |