"All Tanks, no infantry?" Topic

I got started with MicroArmor kind of by accident. I impulsively bid on a tackle box of the stuff in a silent auction. For a mere $50 USD I picked up several hundred tanks of the Allied Nations (no Germans). Most were given a simple spray, not even primed, but I was glad to have won. And so I bought some Germans for them to fight. Over the years I picked up two more second hand collections, again of a motley assortment, again with indifferent paint jobs. Still I was glad to have them.

Well, Spring Cleaning time and I decided to get all of the boxes out, sorted, based and cataloged. You can see the start of that with my Soviet armies below. But as I began to plan a major game to run this spring it hit me: I bought 3 used MicroArmor collections and NOT ONE had a single stick of infantry. Not one tittle. Not one sausage. All the infantry you see here are mine (and there's a bunch being based on the painting table that are not in the photos.

How the heck can you have 40 T-34's and not a single stand of infantry?

Well, to be fair, the infantry used to be lousy, and not worth buying.

Also, very fiddly too.

Now, there are more and better choices, but, it really is all about tanks, anyway, so………

I once saw a public demo game with on one side about 25 Pershings and one M8 vs 20 king tigers. With a crest between them.

…it really is all about the tanks…

I guess, but what kind of game does that give? No artillery, no infantry, no AT guns, just tank tank tank.

And people mock Flames of War for being a parking lot. A game like that would be a freeway. At rush hour!

Don't know, I buy at least 3 packs of GHQ infantry when starting a force. Two of the riflemen and one of the heavy weapons.

From what I remember from back then, it was common just to buy tanks and not be bothered with silly things like infantry support.

In the seventies, we had infantry etc but used card chits (correctly painted…). Tanks, a/t guns, artillery, truck, aircraft s etc were all models.

By this merans, we refought Market Garden over 4 tables one weekend and a chunk of D Day on another. Quite pleasing to look at as well.

Doug

Back in my Micro Armor days I used counters for my grunts. I did buy A/T guns and such. But I liked counters for infantry better than the figures that were around then.
Now I do my WW2 gaming in 15 and 28mm. And my games focus on infantry much more than before. So, miniature troops are essential. Plus I make a lot of my own buildings so I can put my little guys in them. In some ways I've regressed back to my Airfix days.

I played a set of home brew micro armor rules a few times where infantry were just assigned a value for each field or terrain feature and abstracted from there. The writer called it his "ants and cockroaches" approach.

The writer called it his "ants and cockroaches" approach.

Ha!

Actually, the counters makes sense, esp. given of the infantry figures available weren't the beautiful figs I see GHQ turn out now….

How? Well, if you were the Red Army of WW2, throwing nothing but a swarm of tanks at the problem was not all that unusual, actually, given a number of reasons including later war manpower shortages, primitive Red Army tactics, inexperienced commanders, inexperienced tank crews, and poor coordination between constituent units due to shortages of radios (and personnel trained to use them effectively).

So yeah, it's kinda crazy, but it was how the Red Army actually handled their business (well, they tried to, anyway) on more than one occasion. Of course, they usually failed in their objectives in the process, but that was how things rolled on the Ostfront 1941-45 (and the Russians *were* persistent).

Awesome collection you've built up there BTW. I always wanted to do the French Campaign 1940 in microscale, but I am already in too damn deep in other scales…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

In my opinion, while the GHQ infantry are fine, Adler are even better and you can order the support weapons in the quantities you need.

Yes, Adler are a little oversized, but you get better and more poses with greater detail.

I can just about put an entire modern Russian motor rifle regiment on the table. I guess it's a sickness.

pjm

When I first started playing micro armor (early 80s), Yaquito's Armor, Panzer and 88 systems are what we used. Just tanks, no infantry. Even at the local game conventions just tanks, no Infantry.

Then I wrote 'Tigers & Stalins'. Version 1….just tanks, no Infantry. In version 2 I added Infantry and aircraft.

But if we play micro armor….still….mostly tanks…..

HOWEVER….when we play FoW….Infantry rules the field…we use only 3-5 tanks per side. That's it.

Dave

I'm in the midst of "rationalising" the collection for Flames of War. I have one Russian platoon to finish, which will then give me four full companies. For support I've got one mortar platoon and four HMG platoons. I have a few guns but no crew, no trucks, etc. etc.

I'm an unrepentent fan of combined arms … and have become somewhat "capable" at painting 6mm Infantry …

I started a Vietnam collection by buying a used lot. Lots of Infantry in that but have since bought more along with Helicopters and some Tanks etc.

My collection of micro armor had lots of painted tanks and some infantry semi painted on un flocked stands. Otherwise I could never find them on the table. Now I have been collecting newer GHQ modern infantry for games. Have a lot more to do on them. But at least I am getting them done and on the table.

Looking at some of the old school 6mm wargame rules I've seen in the past, they were basically tank games.

I've played quite a few where infantry would crawl a few pitiful centimeter per turn only to be wiped out by whichever tank or artillery piece happened to notice them.

The main problem that I have seen in rule sets are that they are armored centric. They put infantry as an after thought, mainly because they have to. Very few micro armor rule sets make infantry deadly to tanks, especially in an urban environment. It is even more deadly if the tanks do not have infantry support. I have been playing micro armor for about forty years now and we used to use counters for infantry. I was not aware of anybody making 6mm infantry in the 70's. I have only found a couple of rule sets that treat infantry decently and those are the ones I play.

Mike

Back in the day we used to play micro tanks & card chits for infantry as well. Perhaps GHQ didn't even have infantry in the 70s? It seems like quite a few of us did the same thing. As I recall my micros expanded from playing Panzer Blitz & Panzer Leader and I don't recall that they had a lot of infantry in those games.

I started miniature gaming with GHQ microarmor in the late 80s. The infantry back then was in solid blocks, and so uninspiring that I bought one pack, and no more. Now, they have excellent, individually sculpted and posed figures. Very nice. I picked some up recently even though I haven't played micro armor in over a decade.

Also, being just a kid/teenager, I was quite happy playing with only tanks, no infantry. Even anti-tank guns were disfavored, I think I had a grand total of 4 sets of anti-tank guns among my vast collection of Western Desert, Normandy, and Eastern Front microarmor.

The very few times I played with infantry back in the day, I used GW Epic Imperial Guard…

By this merans, we refought Market Garden over 4 tables one weekend and a chunk of D Day on another. Quite pleasing to look at as well.

If you don't use at least 4 tables it isn't Market Garden.

Back when I started in GHQ micro armor (the yellow pack days), it was tanks, tanks, and more tanks. Then somewhere along the line, it dawned on my group that we needed SOME infantry. Unfortunately, the only option was the early GHQ stuff (which was worse then unbearable). So we used counters (filched from board games, often Squad Leader or Panzer Blitz). Today, with all the very nice options for infantry, things are much better. So, don't feel bad; you're just following the same path as the rest of us…

Maybe the infantry was in another box? Seriously though, many of the early armor games treated infantry as targets rather than a combat force to the point that many people simply deleted infantry from their games.

I can't recall many rules which made infantry utterly useless, although I do have one where their only function was to take objectives (and they had to be in a vehicle to do it!).

When I started with 6mm we made counters for infantry, but I fairly rapidly got some H&R figures when they became available. It was much easier to see what the counters represented though:)

A "good" set of rules shows how Infantry, AFVs, FA, CAS, etc. work together and alone … As some relayed of their past gaming experiences, and mine as well from decades ago … The rules only really functioned with AFVs … which was easy, compared to integrating Infantry, etc. into the mix. Plus some rules were "good" enough to incorperate Infantry, etc., but the gamers didn't get how to use them. And all an tank force is easy to use and can take some "bumbling" and still may be able to "win" … IMO, You have two states of nature going on. Rules that effectively use other than Tanks and gamers being "savvy" enough to use the other than Tank models in a game along with tanks. And resembling some sort of a reflection of "real" combined arms warfare … But of course, as I always say, Do what works for U … not me. Paint you tanks orange, lime green, etc. and run them around the table like something in a Disney cartoon. If that makes you happy … Go for it ! It is a game and to much of the world we're playing with toy soldiers …

Yup, like a few folks here, I started in the 80s. The first wargaming I did was 6mm (we just called it Micro-armor here)and there wasnt much infantry around. And has been said, the rules relegated them to an afterthought. Since then our rules (Jagdpanzer 2nd Edition) have been redone, and infantry is now a much larger part of the game.
But even now, I still use die-cut counters with standard symbols for my 6mm infantry. I cant see the detail of stands at farther than 12 inches away anyhow. Also, in a village, there isnt enough room for anything larger than a counter to be placed, unless you put the houses 3 inches apart. In that scale, you've got 75 yards between buildings! Also, weapons teams are easier to see, as Squad leader counters work great for them.

Call me a blasphemer, but in this case I'd rather use paper than lead. But thats just me, and my eyes are getting old. Cheers!

I started in micro-armor with GHQs Tank Charts. No infantry in any of the games me and my friends played at conventions, and so when we got our own stuff it was all tanks. I didn't even SEE infantry in that scale for years and years. I bought a little bit when I got moderns and we got some other rules sets, but they rarely got used. I also bought some guy's massive collection of micro-armor and they had no infantry either. It was all WW2 up through Arab Israeli war stuff.

Last few micro-armor games I played (all moderns) also skipped the infantry.

Hey Mark,
You Still looking for Scenarios? I have all the ones from the Old Wargamers/mILITARY dIGEST

Me too for Tank Charts. Great stuff.

Tanks are way sexier than infantry. Wargamers tend to focus on weapons rather than systems and so they gradually get pulled over to tank versus tank scenarios. Besides, as noted above, infantry was pretty weak against tanks except in closed terrain and until they get properly equipped with bazookas and such they are only speed bumps.

Try this experiment: set up a combined force of armor, infantry and artillery (for both sides), then delete the tanks. What you are left with is a WW1 battle.

Tanks make the WW2 paradigm.

What you are left with is a WW1 battle.

Right, people don't want to play Infantry Charts.

For me … I paint a lot of 6mm Infantry … along with AFVs, FA etc. … after painting 6mm Grunts, painting an AFV is easy ! Albeit, I just do 6mm Sci-fi now, I don't paint them orange like some model companies advocate > link link I'll freely admit I am biased when it comes to Infantry …

I suppose one way to look at it is how many games are named after tanks? :-)

I was always an infantry fan but I prefer to play smaller games in general.

I buy infantry first. The micro-armor battles I have run and enjoyed over the years such as the Market-Garden campaign I ran back in 2008, or Maleme a few years earlier, feature more infantry than AFVs. The AFV is interesting and necessary pieces on the board. However, trucks, jeeps and halftracks should be far more numerous. Tanks are cool, but the queen of the battlefield is always the meat and potatoes of the game. Today, between GHQ and Adler, one can find almost any variety of Infantry and Infantry Weapons required in a high quality and durable product.

The Queen of the Battlefield

There has been plenty of opportunity for someone to name their set of rules thus but so far no takers.

'If you don't use at least 4 tables it isn't Market Garden'

I only used one table. :-)

The issue in a lot of games is that the terrain is so unrealistic that the game becomes unrealistic. Tanks are often done poorly. In close county a tank without its commander head out is in trouble, With his head out he is vulnerable to standard rifle fire. Most tank rules seem to avoid this issue so are unrealistic. Real tank battles are at ranges (if they are lucky) of 500 to 1500 yds. This is about as far as you can see anything in a useful manner. Many "tank" games do not show cover for infantry where in effect it becomes stalemate. That tank can't shoot them and they can't shoot the tank. That's why they need infantry.
We looked at 6mm but its a bit small to get infantry to work well hence we run at 1/144 (approx 10 to 12 mm. I am sure with dedication you could play at 6mm all arms but there would be a staggering amount of kit or else a hell of a lot of abstraction, we could not find a credible solution for this.

Presumably if you wanted to do infantry combat you would buy something other than 1/285.

I used to do 1/300 eastern front and had infantry and infantry weapons etc, but they never got into the action. They were stuck at one end of an 8' table while the action happened between the tanks in the middle of said table.

The result of that told you what would happen to the infantry – basically the loser of the tank battle conceded.

Never found the Katyushas or nebelwerfers useful either. They were only useful against infantry but the enemy's infantry were usually out of range.

The battles I enjoyed most involved squads of infantry stalking each other in close terrain with maybe a few tanks. You had tooled-up German squads with lots of MGs fighting numerous Russian riflemen with a couple of ISU-152s.

It was XCom avant la lettre really.

The solution for slow moving infantry is pretty simple. If you start the game with them a few turns into the board, the armor will catch up to them about the time both sides become engaged. Tightening up the cover terrain will help too, they can double move easier.

We have a lot of infantry in our games. H&R make good well-sized models. Curiously the game we play is Mein Panzer and it is a lot of fun.