"Sock Puppet Accounts Locked" Topic

It'll be Rebelyell2005. He was you before it was cool.

@Chef

Looks like PR struck again and pulled you right in as collateral damage.

Your anger is misplaced, dude. Bill was looking out for you (and others) and you snapped at him for it.

Informative vs Persuasive.

Generally if you are trying to inform people you want to be persuasive.

As for your intent, I would only auggest that looking at iyour words from a different lens than your own, that you were adding to the controversy/drama
and your desire to help Bill avoid such is far less clear than you likely believe it to be.

Oh I know I was participating in the drama. I was just giving Bill a reason why he should care about the way he handles situations like this.

@Quaker

"Generally if you are trying to inform people you want to be persuasive."

Sure, when making an argument, which is both informative and persuasive. Yet, Bill's OP, including the text and the tone was more along the lines of "this happened and this is what I did about it".

His recent open letter to HMGS-PSW, on the other hand, was far more intended to be pesuasive; seeking action from people who might be in a position to cause it to occur.

Anyhow, with the evidence he has presented subsequently, I doubt there's much in the way of deniabilty from KM about the whole thing. Which is,…sad, really.

This just gets worse and worse, what a train wreck this is turning into, how many more people will be driven off this site by the way it is going, no one accused is ever going to get a chance to clear their names but it's Bills house and Bills rules…..

Sure, when making an argument

Which is inherent in Bill's job as moderator. He has to convince people that he is handling issues in a fair manner or they will get upset (and potentially leave).

Anyhow, with the evidence he has presented subsequently, I doubt there's much in the way of deniabilty from KM about the whole thing. Which is,…sad, really.

Yes, it is extremely disappointing and sad. The 15mm community is very collegiate with manufacturers regularly praising the product of other manufacturers.

To have someone using sock puppets to attack competitors, especially when that someone literally can't keep up with demand and so has no financial motive, is a deep betrayal.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not Khurasan Miniatures (who I am no fan of personally and haven't dealt with in years) nor am I Porfirio Rubioso or any other one of the ever-mounting number of so-called "sock puppets" Bill is inventing… on being informed that Bill was committing libel against me… I will not be communicating with him until I've spoken to my lawyer about whether his behavior is actionable. If so, I will make him pay dearly for conflating me with Porfirio Rubioso, an individual I found to be entirely repellent in every way.

Read carefully :-) Chief Lackey Rich – not Chef Lackey Rich – that was the point. Bill is not suggesting that it is you. The suggestion here would appear to be that the sock puppet has invented a name very similar to yours to confuse and provide credibility to his [negative] comments (so indirectly it is the sock puppet, not Bill, making an attack on your character)… Make sure your lawyer is going after the right person ;-)

"innocent until proven guilty"

This is not legal proceedings, and there is no requirement for it to be so. However if you want a legal perspective this is not a criminal issue so the standard against which it would be judged is 'on the balance of probability', ie. more likely than not.

Based on the evidence above, I would have to say that on the balance of probability it is more likely than not that something untoward has been going on – not definitively compelling perhaps, but there is no requirement for the higher standard of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.

Apparently the court of public opinion and hearsay trumps all else

There is no requirement for this to be a public court. Bill has viewed the suspicions 'as presented', carried out his own investigation and decided, on the balance of probability, that there is sufficient proof to take action. He did make contact with KM, who seems to have declined to respond in any depth and, as AA pointed out, does not appear to have responded anywhere else either. As such it would appear, on the balance of probability, that it is more likely than not that the trail Bill has followed is sound.

It's the anonymity of those from "the industry" that gives this a real stink to me

This is not a conspiracy by manufacturers. I have spoken to many of them independently, and they appear to have (in many cases independently) approached TMP with their concerns, nothing more. I have had my own suspicions and concerns too, although I have not voiced them. Naming them 'could' be detrimental to their business when they are actually the aggrieved but innocent victim of an unnecessary (and I suspect more ego-driven than malicious) case of thread pushing or, in some cases (see RM above) direct attack. In most legal contexts 'whistle-blowers' are protected.

So yes, very sad and very unnecessary. KM produced some fine figures, but what appears to have been breached here is the trust and respect of the TMP community, and indeed the wider wargames community, for which Bill has taken what he seems to be appropriate action and, given that KM was a prolific poster and manufacturer, no doubt it was done only after some careful consideration, as it was bound to generate a high degree of criticism and polarisation of opinion. I have been highly critical of the rationale of some of Bill's decisions in the past, but I find myself understanding his position and action in the situation.

Geoff

I am slightly puzzled – if Larry Dunn is behind Khurasan Miniatures who is "Jon"? (never worked out what his surname was…)

Mike

And why is there no geographical address on his website? (a legal requirement in the UK, although possibly not in the US?)

I'm not sure that publishing his employer's identity is really on – whatever your view is of the rights or wrongs of what he's done, this is just a hobby about pushing toys around a table. Why expose the guy to some nutjob informing his employer about what he may/may not be doing on company time?

I am slightly puzzled – if Larry Dunn is behind Khurasan Miniatures who is "Jon"? (never worked out what his surname was…)

Maybe a nickname. But the evidence is that a Lawrence Dunn owns the house KM gives as a return address, and that "Larry Dunn" used to be the name of the TMP poster "camelspider", who asked for help starting 15mm mini production around the time KM came into being.

I'm guessing he burned all his good will as "Larry Dunn" and recreated himself as "Jon" when he opened Khurasan Miniatures.

Is it just terribly naive of me to hope that we can still have some sort of Truth and Reconciliation in this matter?

(And yes, I know that would require for Khurasan to come to the table in some way, somewhere else in the online community, which isn't really happening right now. I'll try to be patient and keep waiting.)

I suppose I am supposed to be outraged about a Larry Dunn connection. However I am clueless. Enlighten a little more please. Who is Larry Dunn and why should I care?

Frothers' reaction is interesting. They are divided in this, but have not resorted to potty mouth denunciations of each other about it. Yet.
I had to wait until today to see because Frothers is a clunkier site than … TMP. It was down every time I tried to look. One of the TMP exiles is honest enough to admit that that defangs the ribbing they give TMP about the Zero Dark Thirty maintenance shutdowns here.
It amuses me (and you know it's all about amusing me) that half admit Bill may be right and the other half says that he can't be right because he 's Bill. The usual hypocritical bs they wallow in over there.

I'm not sure that publishing his employer's identity is really on – whatever your view is of the rights or wrongs of what he's done, this is just a hobby about pushing toys around a table. Why expose the guy to some nutjob informing his employer about what he may/may not be doing on company time?

And if I don't tell you, then you'll say "where's the evidence?"

You can never satisfy some people…

Who is Larry Dunn and why should I care?

I'm not sure I remember the entire story, but Larry Dunn became the butt of many jokes on TMP years ago when it turned out he was the person editing Wikipedia articles arbitrarily.

For example, he removed TooFatLardies' IABSM from a list of WWII rules, and when asked why, said that Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a catalog!

We actually ran a "joke" article once about Larry buying Wikipedia so he could edit everything!

He eventually got kicked off TMP for breaking forum rules – I don't remember why, but it seems he was mocking people he didn't like.

So it is surprising to see that Larry reinvented himself as Khurasan Miniatures.

@Quaker – thanks.

I was puzzled because that wouldn't be legal in the UK. You have to give a name and address to be allowed to sell online in Europe.

Mike

…how many more people will be driven off this site by the way it is going, no one accused is ever going to get a chance to clear their names but it's Bills house and Bills rules…..

If Khurasan wants to make a public statement, have him contact me.

FWIW Bill, not all of us had a problem with you not disclosing evidence! :)

Perhaps as a lawyer I'm just more sensitive to seeing that kind of thing being done as I've seen some of the consequences of it.

(He says, typing this on company time… <grin>)

I'm sorry to see KM go, even though I never bought anything from him. The sock puppetry is annoying but I eventually come down on Bills side in this.

That being said, as more of this unfolds I wonder if the discovery that 'Jon' is in fact someone that folk got rid of some years ago could be part of the issue why he won't set up any non-US sales outlets. Then he would have to make his real identity and location public.

Hey, it now means that I won't deal with a webseller who doesn't have a real address on his/her website. In that sense this spat damages all on-line sellers.

I love you too Sane Max. Getting 50% of your "facts" right is not a bad percentage over there. You're in approximately the right time zone. I'll give you that.
I can't respond to you "over there " because my ISP is "blacklisted" and I can't be bothered to waste my time to get it un-blacklisted.
Pubochuck mano shickna. (Phonetic best guess spelling…)

The above has little to do with this topic. As you may have guessed.

I think a lot of normal folks both here and elsewhere smell something pretty fishy in the accusations that have been made against Khurasan, and I'm not talking to evidence of sock puppeting.

I'm not comfortable as a consumer knowing that a company sock puppets. It's not cool, but you know what it's a minor misdemeanor that talks to boorish behaviour. Sock puppeting might kybosh a sale, but it won't take out a company, especially if the product is good.

What I'm really not comfortable knowing that it seems a bunch of competitors have colluded to lay the boot in on Khurasan, and use TMP as the tool to do so. Funny how this didn't start at LAF, or the Guild, or Frothers or any other site. Funny how some of Bill's most strident critics, who also happen to compete with Khurasan, all of a sudden saying what a bang up job he's done for the hobby in this.

I'm saying this because I'm seeing a bunch of outfits I buy my toys from starting to talk to each other to manipulate the market against a competitor who has a massive reputation based on the quality of his product, and that worries me a whole lot more than sock puppeting. You got to wonder what other discussions are happening, are there ones about suppliers? Sculptors?

Prices?

As a consumer I don't like the idea of being played like this. As a TMP member I don't like seeing the place and Bill played like this.

Interesting how people can have different mindsets. You see this as a grand conspiracy against a skilled sculptor. I see it as a skilled sculptor being outed as a total dickweed.

What I'm really not comfortable knowing that it seems a bunch of competitors have colluded to lay the boot in on Khurasan, and use TMP as the tool to do so. Funny how this didn't start at LAF, or the Guild, or Frothers or any other site. Funny how some of Bill's most strident critics, who also happen to compete with Khurasan, all of a sudden saying what a bang up job he's done for the hobby in this.

I'm saying this because I'm seeing a bunch of outfits I buy my toys from starting to talk to each other to manipulate the market against a competitor who has a massive reputation based on the quality of his product, and that worries me a whole lot more than sock puppeting. You got to wonder what other discussions are happening, are there ones about suppliers? Sculptors?

Prices?

As a consumer I don't like the idea of being played like this. As a TMP member I don't like seeing the place and Bill played like this.

Just for the record, I'm no longer agreeing with you. Just had to say that because I backed you earlier in the thread but don't want to be misconceived as backing accusations of conspiracy, collusion, market manipulation and price fixing.

What I'm really not comfortable knowing that it seems a bunch of competitors have colluded to lay the boot in on Khurasan, and use TMP as the tool to do so. Funny how this didn't start at LAF, or the Guild, or Frothers or any other site.

Actually, it's been discussed in other places for quite some time. As I said, it seems to be multiple independent views, not a collaborated conspiracy.

I'm saying this because I'm seeing a bunch of outfits I buy my toys from starting to talk to each other to manipulate the market against a competitor who has a massive reputation based on the quality of his product….

From the conversations I have been seeing and having, that's very much not the case.

Rebelyell is closer (although i don't think he sculpts, I think he buys in)

@Rebelyell2006 He isn't a sculptor – he uses a lot of very good sculptors but he outsources all sculpting, mould making and casting…

There is not grand conspiracy or secret cabal of wargames manufacturers – at least, I've never been invited into it! :-)

Conversations happen at shows between traders which includes gossip about websites, traders who've just started, traders who've stopped, etc.

Prices are set at what the market will bear – tempered by your competitors' prices – as with any market.

Sculptors are discussed in terms of recommendations when looking for a new one, or ones to avoid who are unreliable and don't deliver…

And why didn't this happen on another forum – because he didn't sock-puppet on another forum I guess….

Mike

I've never been invited into it!

Me neither. I had my (unevidenced) suspicions and was aware of some rumours (here, show circuit, other forums) but not aware of any collaboration or conspiracy.

…because he didn't sock-puppet on another forum I guess…

That we know, of… so far ;-)

at the end of the day I must say I don't care. I buy products I like from whomever has the best prices. there are people I won't buy from on principle, I don't think KM has done anything bad enough to warrant being on that list. there are other manufacturers and resellers on here who have shown sides to them I find abhorrent and will not buy from or even indirectly support, but not for sock puppet accounts

It's not merely sockpuppeting. If he was openly denigrating the products other people sold while claiming to be an independent third party, that would be fraudulent marketing.

Mcwong73

I'm sorry you feel that way. Think on why the manufacturers have asked Bill to look into this. Its almost all the sci fi 15mm manufacturers. Do you really believe the group have a mission to destroy a competitor? Given the nature of people not one manufacturer has come on here and said ' No this is wrong its an evil plan'? Not one?

Clearly one of those manufacturers finally had enough and asked Bill to investigate. It opened a can of worms and more and more of the manufacturers started putting two and two together about their experiences. The more Bill announced the more they added it up.
That is all that has happened. Go look at the posts of the locked and see how many directly or indirectly poke at another manufacturer. Its an enormous amount.

I am just one of many whom have had issues over the past years. I have challenged this before and now that its 'proven' I am very very happy. Why? Because I was right in my own mind. I'm happy with my practises, my concious is clean and I will continue to engage with my customers and all other manufacturers as I have done to this day.

I care not one jot as to what happens to him. I will move on and continue to do what I do as best as I can. I will continue to improve as best as I can

Keith

ArmiesArmy

Sane Max and Derek. How can one "Log Out" when one has never "Logged IN"?
the Log Out option is not there for me.

Anyone want to buy a load of 15mm Sci-Fi?

Painted too… Im going back to 40K. Less drama… ;)

This isn't "drama", this is the result of one person using illegal and unethical business practices to decieve customers and bad mouth other miniature companies (which are almost all simply hobbyists who do it as a side business because of their passion, not to make money).

Being insulted and attacked constantly by someone for years only to find out much later that it was the pseudonym of a supposed fellow hobbyist and producer (one that I've supported and had multiple conversations with, enough to even feel as though we were acquaintances) is quite a betrayal.

How can one "Log Out" when one has never "Logged IN"?
the Log Out option is not there for me.

Member settings> sign out

You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

Wow… if KM is indeed Larry Dunn, my opinion of him/her/them/it has changed considerably. Larry Dunn was a… I guess I can't say it without getting DH'ed for a personal attack, but he was not good for this hobby.

You just said you had evidence that KM and HGA were created on the same computer. You didn't specify exactly what evidence this was.

So this question comes up over and over again.

So first, if Bill is tracing traffic back to an IP or domain or whatever, then the original user is not doing a very good job of covering his tracks.

Second, he can tell what computer it came from by reading the MAC address…the address of the network card used to connect. This can be obfuscated but you would have to know to do that. The card could be moved about to different computers. Another card could have the same MAC address but that is extremely unlikely. To give you an idea of how unlikely, I've been working as a network administrator for more than 30 years. 1 time I HEARD of someone having duplicate MAC addresses with another card. I never saw it first hand.

There are probably other ways he can check. Web Browsers notoriously "spill" information about the owner of the computer.

I have every confidence that our Illustrious Editor has nailed it. He has been pretty careful in the past about when to lock accounts and when to publicly shame…especially the latter.

Just because someone produces good quality miniatures doesn't make them a good person beyond reproach. There was a trader in the UK who turned out to be a BNP member (I won't say who as I believe he sold the business on when it became known).

Also, those thinking they see a shadowy cabal fixing things in the 15mm market probably aren't aware of how the UK games show circuit works. Its more a case of friends meeting up every few weeks and gossiping about what's happening in their life.

Second, he can tell what computer it came from by reading the MAC address

No he can't. MAC addressing does not go beyond the local network link (eg PC to home router). IP runs on top of layer 2 protocols like Ethernet (that use MAC). A web server will only see the MAC address of the last layer 2 link in the chain (which will generally be a router belonging to the hosting facility).

It is possible he could inject some tracking bug into the users web browser that could find the MAC, but modern browsers generally segregate JavaScript etc from the OS to stop that.

Another card could have the same MAC address but that is extremely unlikely

It is technically trivial to clone a MAC address with most NICs.

1 time I HEARD of someone having duplicate MAC addresses with another card.

I've seen heaps. Plenty of cheap knock-off manufacturers don't bother to get a registered MAC block and just use a handful of MACs for their products.

Ascent,
That has been my experience in the US with cons. It is not every few weeks as in the UK but it is several times a year and over the course of working weekend shows together a bond and friendship develops. Because the friendship is via the hobby and the hobby business, much of the conversation revolves around that.

David
splinteredlightminis.com

I have a theory of what actually happened since common sense won't prevail. Ninja hackers broke into the house and silenced his dog with a blowgun tranquilizer. They then proceeded to login to TMP and create several/many accounts and cast disparaging remarks about various companies except for KM. KM was not paying his protection money to the Illuminati so they retaliated. All clear earmarks of an Illuminati smear job. THAT, is what ACTUALLY happened.

No he can't. MAC addressing does not go beyond the local network link (eg PC to home router).

Browsers have been known to leak these sorts of things, especially a certain well known Microsoft browser. YMMV.

I'm always wary of people being accused of sock-puppeting, mainly because I was accused of that on another forum.

The reality was far more mundane, my roommate and I used the same computer. That's all.

I was more surprised at what caused the accusation of sock-puppeting. In one thread my sculpt and sculpting ability was being insulted and she came to my defense.

Obviously a case of sock-puppeting since no one ever came to the defense of a friend being insulted, ever. Right? No one in their right mind would ever think I was a good sculptor or had talent.

So it must have been a case of sock-puppeting.

She went further to PM a company to recommend me as a sculptor, which apparently only put fuel on the fire.

How negative has this industry gotten where it easier to believe someone is sock-puppeting rather than someone liking the work of another and saying good things about it?

Even though the mods of the forum were convinced it wasn't a case of sock-puppeting the damage was done.

Now when I post to that forum at best I get ignored. At worst I get trolled to hell and back.

I'm also pretty sure that's cost me some sculpting work as well.

Please be careful about dragging this out anywhere else. Let the owners of TMP deal with it and everyone else, move on.

Sounds logical to me Joker.

This just keeps getting better and better and it explains so much. People will make up their own minds and buy from whoever they want.

Just because someone produces good quality miniatures doesn't make them a good person beyond reproach.

A good summation and some people here don't know just how much sock puppeting can affect small businesses.

I just wanted to get the 199th post in on this thread, and promote my own range.

It's like a train wreck.. I can't stop checking the thread for the next post…

I rather like the QRF figures but I am not Geoff :)

Whooo Hoo!!! Page 5!

I do not like Geoff nor does my group. We will end him

This is bad taste yes

I will get a taxi